"The Chinese are not in Africa because they love Black people so much"Dr. George Ayittey interview

[mbewane]

Can you give me some examples, (countries), where redrawing borders is a critically important issue?

I'd say CAR, RDCongo, Nigeria, Somalia, Senegal depending if they ever find a lasting compromise and satisfactory deal with Casamance or not, Morocco (Western Sahara), Mali...and those are only the countries I've read stuff on.

 

[ChatGPT-5]

Depends which country he's talking about. If he's talking about South Sudan , yes, they are being fukked. If he's talking about Rwanda, Uganda, couples others, wrong, no one is being finessed

 

[OD-MELA]

I'd say CAR, RDCongo, Nigeria, Somalia, Senegal depending if they ever find a lasting compromise and satisfactory deal with Casamance or not, Morocco (Western Sahara), Mali...and those are only the countries I've read stuff on.

Hmmm, Personally I would maybe add Ethiopia to that list.

But still, within all those countries, at least the ones i know something about, (Congo, naij, somalia), i was under the impression that there were much bigger issues within those places, such as corruption, Islamic extremism, drought, shoddy infrastructure, most of which aren't directly related to ethnic conflicts; although, I concede that ethnic/class/tribe conflicts probably do impede the process of rectifying nation's problems, but then that is the same all over the world. Look how republicans stifle democratic plans in America, conservatives to labour in England, et cetera.

I just think there's an unfounded rush by westerners to pin down strife and discord in Africa always to tribalism

 

[mbewane]

Hmmm, Personally I would maybe add Ethiopia to that list.

But still, within all those countries, at least the ones i know something about, (Congo, naij, somalia), i was under the impression that there were much bigger issues within those places, such as corruption, Islamic extremism, drought, shoddy infrastructure, most of which aren't directly related to ethnic conflicts; although, I concede that ethnic/class/tribe conflicts probably do impede the process of rectifying nation's problems, but then that is the same all over the world. Look how republicans stifle democratic plans in America, conservatives to labour in England, et cetera.

I just think there's an unfounded rush by westerners to pin down strife and discord in Africa always to tribalism

I hear you, was gonna put Ethiopia but tbh I know even less about what's going on there.

Indeed there are more pressing issues, I don't know if it's in this thread or another that I said that in THEORY I'm for opening a debate about borders, but def not in practice in the current situation because all those elements you pointed exist and cause enough issues as it is, and the state has to be strong enough in all its aspects to allow a serene discussion about borders to happen. Far from the case anywhere in Africa imo.

I see what you mean by those issues not benig tied to ethnic conflicts, but sometimes they are. In CAR the North and Eastern regions are even more underdevelopped than the others, and the state has never even tried to invest in them. Part of it is accessibility, but part of it is indeed the fact that those regions are inhabited by other groups than the ones in the West and the South. So end up with a link between no infrastructure and different groups. Those same regions are close to Chad and Sudan, and the groups living in those regions are mostly (not all) Muslim, so now you have a link between underdevelopment (by the country's own standard), different ethnicities, religion, and foreign meddling. That's exactly the mix that lead to the whole Séléka thing a couple years back,a nd it has been brewing for decades. Two things out of four (relative underdevelopment, and foreign influence) could've been avoided if the central power had cared less about making their groups eat good and had opened up to groups from that region. So yes it's not directly related, but sometimes the reason one region has shoddy infrastructure or receives less help in period of droughts for example is precisely because of underlying ethnic divisions. Not saying it's the alpha and the omega of all things African (because it's not), but it can play a role even where one might not expect it.

I agree tribalism is used too often to explain everything in the West, it avoids asking more macro questions (and questionning foreign meddling) and also well just applying normal frameworks (historical, political, sociological, cultural, geographical) to Africa, those very frameworks used everywhere to explain any conflict. I guess it's a form of keeping Africa "exotic". It's slowly changing in Europe though (well at least in France it is), somehow one of the "positive" byproducts of the so-called "war on terrorism" which is worldwide, so you have to apply the same frame of thought to Africa.

Not sure if the last paragraph is clear

 

[FAH1223]

Foreign capital + corrupt African government/local elite and piss poor money management = fail for Africans. Arabs, Europeans, or Chinese or even Romans. At some point people should stop blaming outside languages, customs, and religions and self asses the series of poor leadership or a seemingly flaw in a group. The world works on trade and negotiations and if you keep getting the shyt end of the deal with everyone then the common denominator is you.

Try diversifying your economies and expats sent to study and work abroad in other nations until retirement(or beyond); have them contribute to infrastructure. Instead of "spraying money" at weddings and showers and wearing 24K gold, selfishly keeping(flaunting) money amongst circles(neo-tribalism), go to the rural areas build school, invest in hospitals, and food. Almost 70% of African population live and work in the countryside so there is much potential in rural development instead of mining resources to build skyscrapers.

Hold leaders accountable and change the structure and culture to remove vestiges of colonialism and/or neocolonialism. Disturbing that the sub-Saharan nations are the fastest growing in population and still cannot manage themselves.

Honestly,

The Chinese are better at building infrastructure, they do it faster, they also are not putting African countries on ropes that the IMF/EU put on with structural adjustment and tons of conditionality requirements. The loans you're getting from Beijing aren't back breaking and there's more of a win-win component.

The Chinese labor and state-owned enterprises going to Africa stinks as it doesn't help employment locally but if you get roads, bridges, electricity, sewage, and buildings built... it'll help the economy in the long term.

My father is in Somalia right now. The US/UK really have the stranglehold on the processes there and there really is no fast forward push to developing the infrastructure from them. Turkey has done a lot of infrastructure building in the capital but my pops was saying that the Chinese should really be summoned to rebuild the roads, bridges, and water systems because they did it in the 1970s under Mao after the cultural revolution. Ethiopia next door has had a ton of highways and rail built recently.

The Chinese ARE looking for export markets and a growing middle class in many African countries will consume them. If a country can't diversify its economy, then it may be a big problem.

 

[OD-MELA]

I hear you, was gonna put Ethiopia but tbh I know even less about what's going on there.

Indeed there are more pressing issues, I don't know if it's in this thread or another that I said that in THEORY I'm for opening a debate about borders, but def not in practice in the current situation because all those elements you pointed exist and cause enough issues as it is, and the state has to be strong enough in all its aspects to allow a serene discussion about borders to happen. Far from the case anywhere in Africa imo.

I see what you mean by those issues not benig tied to ethnic conflicts, but sometimes they are. In CAR the North and Eastern regions are even more underdevelopped than the others, and the state has never even tried to invest in them. Part of it is accessibility, but part of it is indeed the fact that those regions are inhabited by other groups than the ones in the West and the South. So end up with a link between no infrastructure and different groups. Those same regions are close to Chad and Sudan, and the groups living in those regions are mostly (not all) Muslim, so now you have a link between underdevelopment (by the country's own standard), different ethnicities, religion, and foreign meddling. That's exactly the mix that lead to the whole Séléka thing a couple years back,a nd it has been brewing for decades. Two things out of four (relative underdevelopment, and foreign influence) could've been avoided if the central power had cared less about making their groups eat good and had opened up to groups from that region. So yes it's not directly related, but sometimes the reason one region has shoddy infrastructure or receives less help in period of droughts for example is precisely because of underlying ethnic divisions. Not saying it's the alpha and the omega of all things African (because it's not), but it can play a role even where one might not expect it.

I agree tribalism is used too often to explain everything in the West, it avoids asking more macro questions (and questionning foreign meddling) and also well just applying normal frameworks (historical, political, sociological, cultural, geographical) to Africa, those very frameworks used everywhere to explain any conflict. I guess it's a form of keeping Africa "exotic". It's slowly changing in Europe though (well at least in France it is), somehow one of the "positive" byproducts of the so-called "war on terrorism" which is worldwide, so you have to apply the same frame of thought to Africa.

Not sure if the last paragraph is clear

Thought I had replied to you earlier...

But yeah I think we're broadly reading from the same page. I don't know anything about the country CAR, but what you described sounds like classic ethnic/tribe based nepotism which is rife in my own parents' countries of birth.

African countries, before most other things, need to start encouraging transparency of governmental departments and processes. Obviously this is idealistic thinking because the reality in many places is an opaque bureaucracy that is rigid and unbending to the wills of the people. Museveni's actions are a good example.

 

[mbewane]

Thought I had replied to you earlier...

But yeah I think we're broadly reading from the same page. I don't know anything about the country CAR, but what you described sounds like classic ethnic/tribe based nepotism which is rife in my own parents' countries of birth.

African countries, before most other things, need to start encouraging transparency of governmental departments and processes. Obviously this is idealistic thinking because the reality in many places is an opaque bureaucracy that is rigid and unbending to the wills of the people. Museveni's actions are a good example.

Where would that be breh, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[OD-MELA]

Rwanda/Uganda

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

How gullible some of y'all are.

 

[$cam-U-Well_Jack$on]

why do they

why?

Greed.