Ted Cruz’s nightmare: Obamacare helps people!

[Brown_Pride]

Because of the greater damage it does to the system as a whole. Its a loss of freedom to have the government able to decide what you will and will not purchase.

What you are not saying but is implicit in programs like this is that, society doesnt care enough about the sick to donate money and provide charity. So we are going to forcibly take a cut from the money the earn and allocate where we think it should go.
^ I'm against this and anything resembling this.

Reaching in your own pocket = compassion
Reaching in some one elses = theft.

that's the price of civilized society. We pay taxes already for "the common good". Military, paid for by taxes, roads, paid for by taxes, police, fire, education, paid for by taxes.

We've seen the dark road selfishness can lead to and ultimately old people end up dying in droves and eating cat food, children starve, otherwise healthy people suffer for medical treatment that a 1st world country should have no problem providing. I for one can't get behind the idea of suffering for the sake of greed.

That's not to say the rest of the system is working optimally. Foodstamps is managed in a piss poor fashion, a lot of the government aid programs could use some serious overhauling. If you want to tighten some of that up I'm all for it. I just believe the argument you're making is better made in those avenues, not in that of healthcare.

I don't particularly like being forced to pay for something "or else" and on that I agree with you. BUT, as I said, i'm "hoping" this is a transition into a one payer system.

 

[Brown_Pride]

You are not factoring the increase in demand for care, the hiring of more staff, new facilities, more medicines etc...

those are what I like to call hidden cost.

Sure I am. Are hospitals profitable right now? Fuk yeah. Are insurance companies profitable? Fuk yeah, you'll forgive me if your "hidden costs" don't amount to shyt.

you're also not taking into account the time tested theory of "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure", this is a true statement that could be abridged with "and also cost 100 times less".

Time and again it's been proven that when a hospital makes a mistake it's actually more profitable, why, because extended hospital stays and costly surgeries are where the money is at. We, the consumers, have been paying through the roof for these things and it's not market driven at all.

I"m also not saying the services of someone else is a right, i'm saying that access to reasonable healthcare is; there's a difference.

 

[DEAD7]

that's the price of civilized society. We pay taxes already for "the common good". Military, paid for by taxes, roads, paid for by taxes, police, fire, education, paid for by taxes.

We've seen the dark road selfishness can lead to and ultimately old people end up dying in droves and eating cat food, children starve, otherwise healthy people suffer for medical treatment that a 1st world country should have no problem providing. I for one can't get behind the idea of suffering for the sake of greed.

That's not to say the rest of the system is working optimally. Foodstamps is managed in a piss poor fashion, a lot of the government aid programs could use some serious overhauling. If you want to tighten some of that up I'm all for it. I just believe the argument you're making is better made in those avenues, not in that of healthcare.

I don't particularly like being forced to pay for something "or else" and on that I agree with you. BUT, as I said, i'm "hoping" this is a transition into a one payer system.

We will just have to disagree to disagree on this point. With the exception of the military I dont think the federal government is -needed- to do any of those things.

 

[DEAD7]

Sure I am. Are hospitals profitable right now? Fuk yeah. Are insurance companies profitable? Fuk yeah, you'll forgive me if your "hidden costs" don't amount to shyt.

you're also not taking into account the time tested theory of "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure", this is a true statement that could be abridged with "and also cost 100 times less".

Time and again it's been proven that when a hospital makes a mistake it's actually more profitable, why, because extended hospital stays and costly surgeries are where the money is at. We, the consumers, have been paying through the roof for these things and it's not market driven at all.

I"m also not saying the services of someone else is a right, i'm saying that access to reasonable healthcare is; there's a difference.

"reasonable"?
Subjective terms like this always lead to disagreements. Who decides what reasonable is? yadayadaya




Access to a man made service seems shaky as a "right" too. In theory one could have a right to haircut using that logic(ad-absurdum)




As far as your first point, hospitals here are grossly understaffed, and the demand for nurses is insane, adding more patients cant do anything but raise cost via longer hours and higher pay for the staff they have... This could just be Cali though

 

[Brown_Pride]

We will just have to disagree to disagree on this point. With the exception of the military I dont think the federal government is -needed- to do any of those things.

history tells us otherwise.
child labor
elderly living standards
overall human suffering
safety of things like food and household products
etc, etc, etc.

 

[DEAD7]

history tells us otherwise.
child labor
elderly living standards
overall human suffering
safety of things like food and household products
etc, etc, etc.

It was capitalism that pulled us out of that not government.

One need only look at all the nations that suffered extreme poverty despite having government some socialized some not. Some nations(with government) still have child labor and appalling elderly living conditions.

America is the exception, not the rule.
Governments have historically been horrendous, but those that have embraced the market economy have seen tremendous improvements in quality of life...

what makes you credit government?

 

[Brown_Pride]

"reasonable"?
Subjective terms like this always lead to disagreements. Who decides what reasonable is? yadayadaya


Access to a man made service seems shaky as a "right" too. In theory one could have a right to haircut using that logic(ad-absurdum)


As far as your first point, hospitals here are grossly understaffed, and the demand for nurses is insane, adding more patients cant do anything but raise cost via longer hours and higher pay for the staff they have... This could just be Cali though

nursing is understaffed, that's hardly an economic thing, and more of a lack of people becoming nurses. The money is there as nurses get paid damn near as much as doctors, that shortage will not change regardless of what we do. Wait times may go up but id' rather wait 8 hours to get better than NEVER get better. Even those who pay now have to wait, so it's not like there's a driving monetary reason that will all of a sudden increase nurses, bottom line is there simply aren't enough nurses.

Ever been to walmart? Ever notice how they don't have even half of their 29 lanes open? Same shyt. You simply increase your wait times in order to save costs. Paying 1 nurse overtime < paying a completely new nurse + benefits.

As for "rights" agreed, we'll just agree to disagree. If you can't distinguish the important differences between access to healthcare and access to a haircut you're sure as hell not going to feel where i'm coming from in regards to healthcare being a right.

 

[Brown_Pride]

It was capitalism that pulled us out of that not government.

One need only look at all the nations that suffered extreme poverty despite having government some socialized some not. Some nations(with government) still have child labor and appalling elderly living conditions.

America is the exception, not the rule.
Governments have historically been horrendous, but those that have embraced the market economy have seen tremendous improvements in quality of life...

what makes you credit government?

Don't get me wrong governments suck by and large. Most are full of corruption and what not. Even, hell ESPECIALLY, in America. That being said I trust more a government of elected officials over a world run by people who ONLY care about money.

Greed is quite simply the single one cause of all of mankinds woes. You're asking me to place my trust in man's desire to make money. I'll trust damn near any government over that. Government may not have the best track record, but greed? What's that track record like?

 

[DEAD7]

nursing is understaffed, that's hardly an economic thing, and more of a lack of people becoming nurses. The money is there as nurses get paid damn near as much as doctors, that shortage will not change regardless of what we do. Wait times may go up but id' rather wait 8 hours to get better than NEVER get better. Even those who pay now have to wait, so it's not like there's a driving monetary reason that will all of a sudden increase nurses, bottom line is there simply aren't enough nurses.

Ever been to walmart? Ever notice how they don't have even half of their 29 lanes open? Same shyt. You simply increase your wait times in order to save costs. Paying 1 nurse overtime < paying a completely new nurse + benefits.

As for "rights" agreed, we'll just agree to disagree. If you can't distinguish the important differences between access to healthcare and access to a haircut you're sure as hell not going to feel where i'm coming from in regards to healthcare being a right.

Places with similar systems(canada,france) report wait times much longer than 8hrs....

 

[Brown_Pride]

Places with similar systems(canada,france) report wait times much longer than 8hrs....

People in Cali report DEATH, extreme discomfort and mind numbing pain, commonly reaching a zenith in death.

I'll wait my 8+ hours.

Plus don't you think we can do better than that? We're america afterall we do everything better

 

[DEAD7]

Don't get me wrong governments suck by and large. Most are full of corruption and what not. Even, hell ESPECIALLY, in America. That being said I trust more a government of elected officials over a world run by people who ONLY care about money.

Greed is quite simply the single one cause of all of mankinds woes. You're asking me to place my trust in man's desire to make money. I'll trust damn near any government over that. Government may not have the best track record, but greed? What's that track record like?

Our advances and successes are due directly to greed.
Medicine, Technology, Military industrial complex take your pick, greed has been the driving force in innovation and efficiency for a long time.

I don't think enough people understand what greed is exactly.

let me pose a scenario...

you're town was just wrecked by a natural disaster:
Who do you think is going to arrive first on the seen and provide you the best care?
The greedy business men who stand to make millions by being first on the scene providing services to those who need it and can go out of business if he fails to deliver quality service, or the government worker who gets paid the same whether they are first or last on the scene, and essentially cant be fired?
Who do you think is more likely to travel nonstop through bad weather to reach those in need? The greedy business man who can think only of the $$$$$ he will be making by aiding those in need, or the government employee?


Now are the people of your town going to put their money with guy offering half ass aid? No. The business men offering the best aid at the -lowest- cost will get the business and name recognition and the $$$$$$$$ that was driving him all along.

 

[DEAD7]

People in Cali report DEATH, extreme discomfort and mind numbing pain, commonly reaching a zenith in death.

I'll wait my 8+ hours.

Plus don't you think we can do better than that? We're america after all we do everything better

Sure, its possible, I'm a believer in American exceptional-ism... real or fake.

But its a step back from the care("care" not cost) we have now.

 

[Brown_Pride]

Our advances and successes are due directly to greed.
Medicine, Technology, Military industrial complex take your pick, greed has been the driving force in innovation and efficiency for a long time.

I don't think enough people understand what greed is exactly.

let me pose a scenario...
you're town was just wrecked by a natural disaster:
Who do you think is going to arrive first on the seen and provide you the best care?
The greedy business men who stand to make millions by being first on the scene providing services to those who need it and can go out of business if he fails to deliver quality service, or the government worker who gets paid the same whether they are first or last on the scene, and essentially cant be fired?
Who do you think is more likely to travel nonstop through bad weather to reach those in need? The greedy business man who can think only of the $$$$$ he will be making by aiding those in need, or the government employee?

Now are the people of your town going to put their money with guy offering half ass aid? No. The business men offering the best aid at the -lowest- cost will get the business and name recognition and the $$$$$$$$ that was driving him all along.

I guess that's why we had an abundance of no bid contracts with piss poor service provided to our men and women fighting and dying for "freedom" in Afgah and Iraq? Clearly those heroes of industry cared more about their name (THE ONE THE JUST UP AND CHANGED as the incorporated in Dubai) than just the $$$$ and clearly we as the public benefited more from that stuff than we would have had we created government entities to handle the same shyt they'd been handling for YEARS before that. ? ? ? See FEMA's response to Katrina as well before you go off and start espousing the wonders of greed.

The problem with greed, again, is that it places the benefit of FEW above the benefit of everyone else. That's a recipe for destruction no matter how you want to sell it.

All that innovation was not only powered by greed, but by humanism and curiosity. It was funded by greed and will be exploited by greed, of that i'm sure.

I'm just saying that's not the ideal and again I'd rather place my lot in with a group of people who I can SORT OF affect vs a group I have no investment in and who have no investment in me.

IF the private sector really did care about it's perception then MAYBE i'd be ok with what you're selling. The problem is that they've (the private sector) now controls the power of perception, so any control we had is dwindling fast, if not already gone completely.

Let me ask you, NEstle wants to privatize water, do you trust a corporation over a government to manage that?

 

[Brown_Pride]

Sure, its possible, I'm a believer in American exceptional-ism... real or fake.

But its a step back from the care("care" not cost) we have now.

unless you can't even get care in which case it's a huge, giant leap forward.
(ratios not real but you'll get the point...)

In other civilized nations 100% of the people get 100% care at 80% quality

In America 50% get access to 70% care at 85% quality.

?
That's to say in other countries you may have to wait, but you get relatively similar quality.

In America you're lucky if you can get help, of the help you get you're lucky if you get all the help you need when you need it and the quality isn't that much better.

Which would you prefer and as a NATION which benefits the nation more?

 

[acri1]

unless you can't even get care in which case it's a huge, giant leap forward.
(ratios not real but you'll get the point...)

In other civilized nations 100% of the people get 100% care at 80% quality

In America 50% get access to 70% care at 85% quality.

?
That's to say in other countries you may have to wait, but you get relatively similar quality.

In America you're lucky if you can get help, of the help you get you're lucky if you get all the help you need when you need it and the quality isn't that much better.

Which would you prefer and as a NATION which benefits the nation more?

Exactly.

It's not like people in other countries are dying waiting in the ER. I mean come on...I've actually talked to people in places that have socialized healthcare (like Canada) and they like it for the most part.

I personally have no problem waiting a number of weeks (or even months) for non-emergency surgery. IMO that's preferable to not being able to get the surgery at all and/or going bankrupt to pay for it (which is what happens to poor and sometimes middle-class people in America). It's been said that most Americans are one medical emergency away from bankruptcy.

There's also the fact that the only form of healthcare available to many poor people is the ER. Not only do people end up there with conditions that could've been prevented with regular check-ups, it's also the most expensive form of healthcare. Society usually picks up the costs anyway (in the form of higher insurance premiums) since most poor people won't be able to pay an ER bill that amounts to tens of thousands of dollars. It's kind of ironic that the people who are so resentful of the idea of paying for someone else's healthcare don't realize that they already are anyway.