SUNY to permanently drop the SAT and ACT requirements. Becoming the biggest university system to do so

[Professor Emeritus]

Not for nothing but the fact that a lot of people now have a college degree and they are still working shytty service sector jobs is precisely proof that if letting everyone in waters down college education then everyone having a degree also does the same thing...

I'm not following the logic here at all. The work required to graduate from college will be exactly the same regardless of how you perform on an arbitrary test at 16. You're not asking for a more meaningful college degree, you're just asking to maintain arbitrary cutoffs to access for the sake of appearances.

A degree is supposed to really indicate that you have some specialized training in a field

Perhaps there's a counterexample that's slipping my mind, but I can't think of any bachelor's degree that gives you "specialized training in a field."

Specialized training for a field happens in graduate school. The point of Bachelor's degrees is:

1. To develop a broad base of knowledge about the world
2. To develop critical thinking as well as various soft skills
3. To prove that you are disciplined enough to work hard in that setting
4. To provide an arbitrary bar to sort applicants

 

[Ciggavelli]

I'm not following the logic here at all. The work required to graduate from college will be exactly the same regardless of how you perform on an arbitrary test at 16. You're not asking for a more meaningful college degree, you're just asking to maintain arbitrary cutoffs to access for the sake of appearances.






Perhaps there's a counterexample that's slipping my mind, but I can't think of any bachelor's degree that gives you "specialized training in a field."

Specialized training for a field happens in graduate school. The point of Bachelor's degrees is:

1. To develop a broad base of knowledge about the world
2. To develop critical thinking as well as various soft skills
3. To prove that you are disciplined enough to work hard in that setting
4. To provide an arbitrary bar to sort applicants

Do you support standardized testing for grad school? I think I've made my argument many times in this thread for standardized testing, but I'm interested in what you think about grad school.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Do you support standardized testing for grad school? I think I've made my argument many times in this thread for standardized testing, but I'm interested in what you think about grad school.

I don't support multiple choice standardized testing for grad school unless taking multiple choice standardized tests is the career that grad school is preparing you for. It's an intellectually inane process that has little relation to real life.

I think more comprehensive exams that do a good job of extracting the actual knowledge and thought processes of the student could have some place. Written out solved problems and essay-type answers. They're inferior to the actual work (courses taken, work produced, recommendations of professors and colleagues), but they could be used, say, where a student feels they weren't given an opportunity to show what they've accomplished or as a check against nepotism.

That's all just gut feeling / general principles though. I haven't actually studied grad school testing specifically in any capacity.

 

[shonuff]

I'm not following the logic here at all. The work required to graduate from college will be exactly the same regardless of how you perform on an arbitrary test at 16. You're not asking for a more meaningful college degree, you're just asking to maintain arbitrary cutoffs to access for the sake of appearances.






Perhaps there's a counterexample that's slipping my mind, but I can't think of any bachelor's degree that gives you "specialized training in a field."

Specialized training for a field happens in graduate school. The point of Bachelor's degrees is:

1. To develop a broad base of knowledge about the world
2. To develop critical thinking as well as various soft skills
3. To prove that you are disciplined enough to work hard in that setting
4. To provide an arbitrary bar to sort applicants

Wait so if a person gets a degree in psychology they are qualified to be an engineer ? If someone gets a art history degree that's means they can goto medical school ?

If a degree doesn't indicate that you are specialized in some aspect of study then why is there a declaration of what it is you're studying for??

This is whats so disingenuous about the argument for those who are against doing away with standardized tests . People are saying. Well if you let anyone get in then a degree doesn't mean anything...

But a degree doesn't mean anything even now becuase you have people with degrees who are doing occupations that have little or nothing to do with the degree they got ...

And a LOT of jobs especially in the service sector- you don't really NEED a degree to do -

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Wait so if a person gets a degree in psychology they are qualified to be an engineer ?

The purpose of undergraduate school for an engineer is to prove that you are technically proficient, to gain a broad base of math skills and basic science knowledge, and to figure out if you like the engineering field or not. If you want actual specialized training that will directly apply to the work you do on the field, you'll get that in graduate school.

If someone gets a art history degree that's means they can goto medical school ?

Literally any degree will qualify you for medical school. I've heard that in some ways humanities degrees have a better chance because their application sticks out a little more. Medical schools won't disqualify you based on your degree so long as you have a few essential course prerequisites (usually biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and maybe 1-2 other biology courses depending on the med school). Some folk with B.A.'s who never took a science course will just knock off their pre-reqs in summer school or night school after their degree is already completely. They certainly don't expect you to have learned jack shyt about how to be a doctor based on your undergraduate education, they just want to ensure that you're competent in the general vocabulary and thought processes.

If a degree doesn't indicate that you are specialized in some aspect of study then why is there a declaration of what it is you're studying for??

Tradition, ego, sorting, and the fact that schools are heavily sub-divided into various departments who are very possessive over their field. The name on an undergraduate degree is less important than most people think it is. It's good to be able to show that you performed well in the same general areas as the job you hope to work in, but that has more to do with aptitude and work ethic than "specialized training" for how to actually do your job.

This is whats so disingenuous about the argument for those who are against doing away with standardized tests . People are saying. Well if you let anyone get in then a degree doesn't mean anything...

But a degree doesn't mean anything even now becuase you have people with degrees who are doing occupations that have little or nothing to do with the degree they got ...

And a LOT of jobs especially in the service sector- you don't really NEED a degree to do -

Yup. I'm a big fan of college because I think it's important to have a broad base of knowledge, you have to work a lot on your critical thinking, and it exposes people to ideas and people that they wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise. But MOST jobs which require a bachelor's degree, you don't really need to have gotten the degree to do the work. If you need specialized training then they will require a graduate degree. If all they require is a B.S. or a B.A., then I'll bet you could pick up the necessary background info for the job in less than a year of self-study, if that. The reason for getting a degree is 90% about the need to sort applicants and demonstrate basic ability and work ethic moreso than actually learning anything that will tell you how to do your job.