SUNY to permanently drop the SAT and ACT requirements. Becoming the biggest university system to do so

[Ciggavelli]

There is no such thing as a totally culturally-adjusted IQ test because the people who are trying to calibrate the concept of intelligence in a test are naturally culturally biased.

But beyond that, the biggest indicator of success in college is the familiarity that students have with the academic culture. If you hold useful knowledge and have strong critical thinking skills, but you don't have as strong a grasp of, say, the culturally-specific academic essay structure or grammar patterns of Standard American English, you are liable to score worse and find less success than a student who understands the latter even if they don't have the same development of skills in the former.

Anyway, like I said, we disagree. This idea of being "fairer to gifted students" is nonsense to me. What that idea really means in practice is that students who are lucky enough to grow up immersed in a very specific academic culture get priority and opportunity over students who are well able to be successful in college, but didn't spend as much time within the culture(or who struggle to adapt to said culture).

Don't get me wrong: I also want to keep students from getting in crippling educational debt and to make sure that people go to college and can be successful in the institution. But none of those solutions have to do with a bunch of archaic methods that higher education in this country is generally moving away from for very good reasons.

Fair enough. I guess time will tell if these new methods are successful. I’d be very interested in the metrics after a decade. Then we can evaluate and compare statistically to see if improvements are made. I’m all for a fair way to evaluate kids for college. Maybe I’m biased because of my educational training.

I’m still concerned for the gifted children. I know you are skeptical of that, but I don’t want them to be punished because of all this.

 

[Wild self]

Funny, how they started doing this when Gen Z white and Asian males, the traditional male college student, stopped going to colleges in high numbers during the last decade due to excessive tuition prices and historically high loans

When White dudes of Gen Z don't bother going to college and rather bum out or learn a trade skill, all of a sudden the SAT and ACT doesn't make sense.

 

[BigMoneyGrip]

Funny, how they started doing this when Gen Z white and Asian males, the traditional male college student, stopped going to colleges in high numbers during the last decade due to excessive tuition prices and historically high loans

When White dudes of Gen Z don't bother going to college and rather bum out or learn a trade skill, all of a sudden the SAT and ACT doesn't make sense.

Basically

 

[mastermind]

I just did a quick search, and yes there are conflicting reports. Some studies show a high correlation and other claim there is not a high correlation. I guess the jury is out.

Like I said before though, I'd be fine with substituting the SAT and replacing it with a culture-free IQ test. That would serve needs well. My main issues it that there needs to be a standardized way of measuring students.

Edit: Upon a more detailed search, the people saying SAT and IQ tests don't highly correlate are a bit suspect. Those that show a high correlation appear to be more legitimate, but you're free to look it up yourself if you haven't.

Here's a study I find legitimate for example: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0956-7976.2004.00687.x?journalCode=pssa

You are suggesting that african Americans and poor people are less intelligent than other racial groups. Think about what you are writing.

 

[Ciggavelli]

You are suggesting that african Americans and poor people are less intelligent than other racial groups. Think about what you are writing.

No I’m not.

Where did you get that from my writing? Are you suggesting AA and poor people can’t be gifted? I think the data suggests otherwise.

 

[CEO of Morgan Industries]

I’m still concerned for the gifted children. I know you are skeptical of that, but I don’t want them to be punished because of all this.

As one of those "gifted students," I was offered multiple academic opportunities like AP classes that helped me get into an undergrad program, and then a grad program after that.

No student lucky enough to go the college prep/gifted program route is missing out on any opportunities, IMO. Those kids are in. They are in those programs because they know the culture that guides entrance into those programs, and that culture is replicated across higher education.

 

[Ciggavelli]

As one of those "gifted students," I was offered multiple academic opportunities like AP classes that helped me get into an undergrad program, and then a grad program after that.

No student lucky enough to go the college prep/gifted program route is missing out on any opportunities, IMO. Those kids are in. They are in those programs because they know the culture that guides entrance into those programs, and that culture is replicated across higher education.

They are trying to do away from AP classes though. I guess I just feel IQ/SAT tests can easily find gifted students that may not have been found otherwise. Maybe I’m wrong, but that is my concern. However, it’s not like every university is doing away with standardized tests. I guess if you score high on either you can go to a more “elite” school. But then again, not everybody can afford those schools and can only afford a state school.

 

[Pressure]

Testing isn’t bad a priori because previous testing was flawed.

 

[Unfiltered]

This is being done to intentionally discriminate against the Asian American community. Statistically Asians outperform other racial groups on these tests, so of course there’s a movement to eliminate them. If the black community dominated the ACT and SAT, and the qualifications were suddenly dropped their would be an outcry of racism (and rightfully so). But nobody cares when Asians are targeted.

 

[Pressure]

This is being done to intentionally discriminate against the Asian American community. Statistically Asians outperform other racial groups on these tests, so of course there’s a movement to eliminate them. If the black community dominated the ACT and SAT, and the qualifications were suddenly dropped their would be an outcry of racism (and rightfully so). But nobody cares when Asians are targeted.

The same Asian Americans contesting affirmative action?

 

[Secure Da Bag]

This is being done to intentionally discriminate against the Asian American community. Statistically Asians outperform other racial groups on these tests, so of course there’s a movement to eliminate them. If the black community dominated the ACT and SAT, and the qualifications were suddenly dropped their would be an outcry of racism (and rightfully so). But nobody cares when Asians are targeted.

I agree. Asians starting putting pressure on those scholarships and admissions. When they started asking questions, "why didn't I get in?" Colleges got real nervous. Basically affirmative action for the rich and silent expectation that other white kids would be getting those spots started to get pressure. Between actual test scores and this AA case, college found the loophole. Ask for extracurricular activities instead of test scores. So for now, the Asian wave is blunted.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I agree. Asians starting putting pressure on those scholarships and admissions. When they started asking questions, "why didn't I get in?" Colleges got real nervous. Basically affirmative action for the rich and silent expectation that other white kids would be getting those spots started to get pressure. Between actual test scores and this AA case, college found the loophole. Ask for extracurricular activities instead of test scores. So for now, the Asian wave is blunted.

If that is the goal, it's not working in the real world. At top level companies Asians dominate. I work at a large tech company and it's 80% Asian. I have no problem with it. If they are more qualified for the job, they should get it. I can see rethugs seeing this as replacement theory or something though.

 

[mastermind]

No I’m not.

Where did you get that from my writing? Are you suggesting AA and poor people can’t be gifted? I think the data suggests otherwise.

I’m only suggesting these tests arent intelligent tests. You were suggesting that and then found studies that say they are.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I’m only suggesting these tests arent intelligent tests. You were suggesting that and then found studies that say they are.

Like I mentioned I studied tests and measurements in grad school. IQ tests are the best predictor of success at school and the workplace. That's not to say there isn't a better method out there. Maybe we haven't figured that out yet.

I think an ideal manner for selecting students would be a realistic class test in the basic subjects and one on one interviews that assess hypotheticals, quick thinking, creativity, etc. Kinda like a job interview. But how do you do that with some many applicants with limited staff? You need a sifting method, and SAT scores are the best way of doing that at the moment.

I'm not really sure what you are expecting me to say about this. If you don't evaluate potential students on a standardized metric, then you are going to be letting in a lot of students that won't succeed and forgoing some students that will.

I've seen the no evaluation method first hand at ASU when I was there. They let in 98% of all applicants. Nowhere near that graduated. Now they have student loan debt and nothing to show for it. It's good for ASU, in terms of tuition. It funds great grad programs that bring in top professors. It funds salaries for admins. But is it good for those students?

 

[wire28]

The SAT is garbage at doing anything at all to quantify a student's skills or abilities. It tests for a narrow band of things that are often irrelevant to student abilities or performance.

If you talk to anybody that says they are “good test takers” they’ll admit it’s all about just finding out what the test taker is asking and telling them what they want to hear.

Being good at taking a test doesn’t mean actually being knowledgeable.