SUNY to permanently drop the SAT and ACT requirements. Becoming the biggest university system to do so

[Anerdyblackguy]

New York higher education institutions are pushing away from the traditional standards of accepting undergraduate students based in part on SAT and ACT scores.

Vassar College in Poughkeepsie and the State University of New York were the latest to announce this week that they will no longer require students to submit SAT and ACT scores with applications.

SUNY temporarily suspended the requirement in June 2020, and Chancellor John King brought forward a resolution that was approved by the Board of Trustees this week to continue the policy. The resolution allows for each of SUNY’s 64 campuses to end the requirement and calls for a more holistic approach to accessing applicants.

“Each SUNY campus will continue with its longstanding commitment to a holistic review of student applications that includes grades, program of study, academic achievements, non-academic achievements, and other activities that allow for the evaluation of the potential success of a candidate for admission,” the resolution said.

Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley made the announcement on Thursday saying the college tested out waiving the requirement for the 2020-2021 application cycle, but will now make the change permanent.

“Studies have shown that test scores do not always accurately measure the qualities we are looking for in students,” Bradley said. Standardized testing simply shows who is a good test taker.”

The college began researching the move prior to the pandemic in the fall of 2019 and started the pilot policy in 2020 prior to the pandemic. Sonya Smith, vice president and dean of admissions at Vassar said research found the test scores could not significantly indicate if a student would graduate in four years.

“By going test optional, it sends a clear message to prospective applicants that we believe that they are smart, capable, and worthy regardless of whether they are a talented test taker,” Smith said in a statement.

 

[Ciggavelli]

Yeah, but the ACT and SAT are standardized and allow for reliable comparisons. Grades do not because high school A is not the same as high school B, if one is harder than the other. High School education various widely by district and by state. I don’t know how I feel about this. I used to study tests and measurements in grade school and there really should be a valid and reliable way to compare students. I don’t know much about the ACT, but the SAT is good at doing that.

 

[CEO of Morgan Industries]

Good. Standardized testing was started to keep Jewish students out of elite colleges, then propagated to keep black and Latin students out. There is a reason that Kaplan is one of the biggest companies around for offering SAT study; it was started by a Jewish person to help learn how to beat the WASP test.

Standardized testing is the biggest time-wasting, money-wasting scam in education.

Yeah, but the ACT and SAT are standardized and allow for reliable comparisons. Grades do not because high school A is not the same as high school B, if one is harder than the other. High School education various widely by district and by state. I don’t know how I feel about this. I used to study tests and measurements in grade school and there really should be a valid and reliable way to compare students. I don’t know much about the ACT, but the SAT is good at doing that.

The SAT is garbage at doing anything at all to quantify a student's skills or abilities. It tests for a narrow band of things that are often irrelevant to student abilities or performance.

 

[Ciggavelli]

Good. Standardized testing was started to keep Jewish students out of elite colleges, then propagated to keep black and Latin students out. There is a reason that Kaplan is one of the biggest companies around for offering SAT study; it was started by a Jewish person to help learn how to beat the WASP test.

Standardized testing is the biggest time-wasting, money-wasting scam in education.



The SAT is garbage at doing anything at all to quantify a student's skills or abilities. It tests for a narrow band of things that are often irrelevant to student abilities or performance.

So what's your solution then? Just let everybody in? There has to be a standardized way to compare students. Getting rid of this punishes gifted kids.

 

[CEO of Morgan Industries]

So what's your solution then? Just let everybody in? There has to be a standardized way to compare students. Getting rid of this punishes gifted kids.

That's nonsense. "Gifted" kids aren't punished. What you are defining as gifted has nothing to do with talent or intelligence. It has to do with being able to master the taking of a specific test.

To actually find the students who have something valuable that might be good for your campus or program, you'd have to actually see their work/portfolio; get testimonials from their teachers, counselors, supervisors, and volunteer coordinators; and interview them.

The idea that college acceptance relies upon getting a score on a test that asks you about the meanings of random vocabulary words or that values only one of the many types of writing that you do in a college program (not everything is written in academic essay format IRL) is dumb, pointless, and actually unfair to talented students who don't test well at one specific test.

Standardized testing is a failed idea, and it staggers me that people still support it.

 

[Ciggavelli]

That's nonsense. "Gifted" kids aren't punished. What you are defining as gifted has nothing to do with talent or intelligence. It has to do with being able to master the taking of a specific test.

To actually find the students who have something valuable that might be good for your campus or program, you'd have to actually see their work/portfolio; get testimonials from their teachers, counselors, supervisors, and volunteer coordinators; and interview them.

The idea that college acceptance relies upon getting a score on a test that asks you about the meanings of random vocabulary words or that values only one of the many types of writing that you do in a college program (not everything is written in academic essay format IRL) is dumb, pointless, and actually unfair to talented students who don't test well at one specific test.

Standardized testing is a failed idea, and it staggers me that people still support it.

But IQ is the best predictor of success at a a university and a job and the SAT is highly correlated with IQ. Teacher testimonies are good, but they likely aren't highly correlated with IQ. I'd be for giving kids a culture free IQ test instead (they exist). There has to be a standardized and fair sifting factor, or higher education just becomes meaningless.

 

[mastermind]

Yeah, but the ACT and SAT are standardized and allow for reliable comparisons. Grades do not because high school A is not the same as high school B, if one is harder than the other. High School education various widely by district and by state. I don’t know how I feel about this. I used to study tests and measurements in grade school and there really should be a valid and reliable way to compare students. I don’t know much about the ACT, but the SAT is good at doing that.

The SAT only tests for success as a freshman in college.

And if you have the money to pay for test prep courses, it teaches you the correct rhythms of the test.

Those tests gauge fukk all.

 

[Ciggavelli]

The SAT only tests for success as a freshman in college.

And if you have the money to pay for test prep courses, it teaches you the correct rhythms of the test.

Those tests gauge fukk all.

But shouldn't that be the way it is? You need to pass your first year to move on to the second year. Schools like to have good metrics too to appeal to students.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I went to ASU for my PhD. For undergrads they let 98% of the students in. They had a massive drop off rate on the 2nd and 3rd year. It became a waste for those students. They have student loans, but no degree. You can't just let everybody into school without consequences.

ASU had a different strategy than most universities. ASU got a ton of tuition money, so I guess there was strategic monetary reason for it, but it was bad for some kids

 

[mastermind]

But shouldn't that be the way it is? You need to pass your first year to move on to the second year. Schools like to have good metrics too to appeal to students.

You said it closely aligns with IQ scores which is not true. The SAT is not any correlation with intelligence.

 

[Ciggavelli]

You said it closely aligns with IQ scores which is not true. The SAT is not any correlation with intelligence.

I just did a quick search, and yes there are conflicting reports. Some studies show a high correlation and other claim there is not a high correlation. I guess the jury is out.

Like I said before though, I'd be fine with substituting the SAT and replacing it with a culture-free IQ test. That would serve needs well. My main issues it that there needs to be a standardized way of measuring students.

Edit: Upon a more detailed search, the people saying SAT and IQ tests don't highly correlate are a bit suspect. Those that show a high correlation appear to be more legitimate, but you're free to look it up yourself if you haven't.

Here's a study I find legitimate for example: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0956-7976.2004.00687.x?journalCode=pssa

 

[CEO of Morgan Industries]

But IQ is the best predictor of success at a a university and a job and the SAT is highly correlated with IQ. Teacher testimonies are good, but they likely aren't highly correlated with IQ. I'd be for giving kids a culture free IQ test instead (they exist). There has to be a standardized and fair sifting factor, or higher education just becomes meaningless.

I cannot imagine using a culturally-specific measure such as IQ that was created specifically in order to cement racial stereotypes w/r/t intelligence in a conversation about education in 2023.

We might as well suggest that phrenology matters to a student's potential success as well.

Wild. Look, I'm just going to suggest that we're way too far apart here on this topic to really have a productive conversation.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I cannot imagine using a culturally-specific measure such as IQ that was created specifically in order to cement racial stereotypes w/r/t intelligence in a conversation about education in 2023.

We might as well suggest that phrenology matters to a student's potential success as well.

Wild. Look, I'm just going to suggest that we're way too far apart here on this topic to really have a productive conversation.

I guess you missed the part where I said culture-free IQ tests multiple times in this thread?

Those types of tests exist and are reliable and valid. This isn’t the 1950s anymore

 

[Ciggavelli]

I realize the troubling past of IQ tests, but they have developed IQ tests that are not culturally biased. I studied tests and measurements in grad school (I/O Psychology). General intelligence, g, is the best predictor of success in school and on the job. G is assessed through IQ. So, from a statistical standpoint, IQ tests are a good way of evaluating the potential of a student to succeed in college or not. This is much different that phrenology…smh

There needs to be a fair way to evaluate kids for college, so that kids that aren’t well suited don’t waste their time and get in debt for no reason. It also is fairer to gifted students.

I do think qualitative aspects should be used as well, but qualitative aspects aren’t as predictive. We can use both though.

 

[CEO of Morgan Industries]

I guess you missed the part where I said culture-free IQ tests multiple times in this thread?

Those types of tests exist and are reliable and valid. This isn’t the 1950s anymore

There is no such thing as a totally culturally-adjusted IQ test because the people who are trying to calibrate the concept of intelligence in a test are naturally culturally biased.

But beyond that, the biggest indicator of success in college is the familiarity that students have with the academic culture. If you hold useful knowledge and have strong critical thinking skills, but you don't have as strong a grasp of, say, the culturally-specific academic essay structure or grammar patterns of Standard American English, you are liable to score worse and find less success than a student who understands the latter even if they don't have the same development of skills in the former.

Anyway, like I said, we disagree. This idea of being "fairer to gifted students" is nonsense to me. What that idea really means in practice is that students who are lucky enough to grow up immersed in a very specific academic culture get priority and opportunity over students who are well able to be successful in college, but didn't spend as much time within the culture(or who struggle to adapt to said culture).

Don't get me wrong: I also want to keep students from getting in crippling educational debt and to make sure that people go to college and can be successful in the institution. But none of those solutions have to do with a bunch of archaic methods that higher education in this country is generally moving away from for very good reasons.