Struggle of Poor Students

[Gus Money]

Well one can't sit and about it or handle theirs. That's the way I see it. Once I was an independent student I got pell grants that covered my entire tuition so it's kinda hard for me to empathize.

If 1 person can do it, I'm sorry, but I can't buy any excuse and/or explanation. As hard as one story is, there's always one harder.

I think it has more to do with one's drive than socioeconomic status. Some are built mentally tougher than others. Sorry to be so blunt.

Whether you think you can or you can't, you're absolutely right.

Nobody is crying about it but you can't pretend that one person's situation can be applied across the board. Not everyone can get pell grants or full scholarships. This is a fact.

You may think it has more to do with drive and toughness, but accomplished sociologists disagree with you. You're relying on personal, isolated experiences while sociologists are relying on facts and actual research. A few isolated examples don't prove much of anything.

Motivational phrases aren't going to account for all the issues I brought up in my previous post. That's just the reality of it.

 

[FAH1223]

how ? :ooo:

Lived at home and contributed. Tuition was in state and it was like $4k a semester so $8k a year. Worked part time and full time during summers except one year I studied abroad in Egypt. Got scholarships and grants too.

I stayed an extra semester hence the $2700 in debt. Paid that shid off in June (graduated last December)

 

[Johnny Kilroy]

Nobody is crying about it but you can't pretend that one person's situation can be applied across the board. Not everyone can get pell grants or full scholarships. This is a fact.

You may think it has more to do with drive and toughness, but accomplished sociologists disagree with you. You're relying on personal, isolated experiences while sociologists are relying on facts and actual research. A few isolated examples don't prove much of anything.

Motivational phrases aren't going to account for all the issues I brought up in my previous post. That's just the reality of it.

If you can't get a pell grant you're not a low income student.
That's basic financial aid, breh.

I don't really care what sociologists say because they're talking about the whole. Why wouldn't I focus on me? Just like you should focus on you and the next man should focus on himself. If 99% of the people fail I don't see what that has to do with ME.

We're just coming from 2 different angles. You're talking macro and I'm talking micro. So again, it boils down to the individual. Some people look at other's failures and doubt themselves. Some people look at other's failures, shrug, and KIM. I don't give a fukk about the statistics and neither should anyone else. What does a million people failing before me have to do with me?

This problem is impossible to solve from a macro point of view. Each individual needs to handle theirs.

While you're mentioning different circumstances you're failing to acknowledge different levels of ambition and drive. If you truly want to succeed, you will.

Is it possible? Then do it or stfu. Plain and simple.

BTW, that wasn't a motivational phrase earlier. It's the truth.

 

[No1]

Alright granted I jumped the gun, didn't read the article before posting. I simply went off the sentiment being spewed in the thread.

It's a gut wrenching story; here, here. But I can only be sohh compassionate...

Wholeheartedly though, on some issues I think to the right, meanwhile on other concerns I strongly support the left...


Sometimes you "just have to get it done."

(see now I'm about to list some sh*t, that's going make me sound like an exception too)

Heck I worked damn near full-time throughout HS and College.

I knew better than to take an enormous loan out, for school at 17.

Sometimes I'd be up for for over 72hours studying for midterms,finals, and finalizing research projects...

Heck I push myself sohh hard, because I remember my grandmother foretelling stories about blacks(other minorities as well), being denied the half the opportunity available today.

Heck when you do get around to reading the whole article, notice, how these chicks accredit their lack of willingness to studying, due to partying and dealing with "problematic" b/f's, whom they knew were no good from the jump...





Breh relax, I said 2thingz. The combination of both are rather self-destructive in this economic climate...

Having a 2.0 in college isn't a deal breaker.(granted an individuals is, intrinsic and knows what they want to do.)

Not going to college isn't a deal breaker either. (granted an individual knows what they want to do[trade school, self taught])

Capitalism is still thriving in this country. Rich people are still getting richer and poor people(you know the rest).

With that said, an individual graduating from college with a 2.0 gpa, and little inclination about their next move is disastrous within itself.

You know the type,
loud as a motor bike,
complain about college being a scam, waste of time and little job prospects, because their grades weren't right...

Times are changing. But once again, this is a capitalist society. While, a more "socialist" society , where equality is prevalent, seems ideal, modern day civilization still has a long way before obtaining this facade.

Theoretically "socialism", never pans out...

Nobody wants upward mobility to halt or decline, but until external and internal forces(congress / consumer confidence ) come together, the masses will suffer.

Now this is fukked up....

Well, first off, I'm calm. For the life of my, I'll never understand why people in HL assume that I'm ever upset when 99% of the time I'm sitting somewhere on cbox (which I told you to join once) bullshytting while posting. I can't help that. 85% of the time I'm posting on here, I'm on my cell phone...I guess when you speak directly over the internet it doesn't translate well. Enough people have said it to where I just I needed to mention that. Disappointed at times? Certainly, but rarely upset.

That's not my point though breh, being right or left on certain issues isn't the point. It's the starting point of even insinuating that a 2.0 GPA and a limited perspective should be anywhere near the discussion. Even worse, you think it's a "right" or "left" issue. No, it's not. Most people in the United States feel that their children will not have a better life they do. I just feel like a discussion like this deserves much more than that. That's my only issue.

I mean really, you just brought up your financial literacy at 17? Most kids don't have that and they leave that shyt up to their parents. The point is, you're telling people to be extraordinary in the face of extraordinary circumstances, and most people aren't that. That's all I'm saying, I'm just responding to that ethos. People obviously do dumb shyt, but they're not doing anything that people weren't doing before when the opportunities weren't as sparse.

 

[TrueEpic08]

If you can't get a pell grant you're not a low income student.
That's basic financial aid, breh.

I don't really care what sociologists say because they're talking about the whole. Why wouldn't I focus on me? Just like you should focus on you and the next man should focus on himself. If 99% of the people fail I don't see what that has to do with ME.

We're just coming from 2 different angles. You're talking macro and I'm talking micro. So again, it boils down to the individual. Some people look at other's failures and doubt themselves. Some people look at other's failures, shrug, and KIM. I don't give a fukk about the statistics and neither should anyone else. What does a million people failing before me have to do with me?

This problem is impossible to solve from a macro point of view. Each individual needs to handle theirs.

While you're mentioning different circumstances you're failing to acknowledge different levels of ambition and drive. If you truly want to succeed, you will.

Is it possible? Then do it or stfu. Plain and simple.

BTW, that wasn't a motivational phrase earlier. It's the truth.

Well, no one here is really talking about you. That's the problem. What's being discussed here is a finding regarding the largesse of American college students of lower income relative to their peers of the upper middle class and beyond. Of course there are going to be exceptions, but just because there are exceptions within the majority doesn't mean that those exceptions disprove the majority at all. Not understanding that you are a specific case within a multiplicity of cases is extremely shortsighted.

How would it look to say "There are rich blacks, therefore Blacks need to pipe down about their second class status within American society and do something about it?" To have that attitude is to be completely ignorant of the attitudes the majority of American society has had toward Blacks before America was even founded, the way that those attitudes have inhered themselves in the societal and cultural makeup of the state and the different ways that they have affected Blacks as a constructed community both from the outside (by those who taxonomize us for data/statistical purposes or via prejudice and racism, for instance) and the inside (via the cultural insiderism of the community, for better and worse).

Worse yet, attitudes such as this play right into the hands of the status quo, who use those exceptions as a rationale to leave the situations as they are, or worse, reduce them to a more deleterious state.

 

[CouldntBeMeTho]

America has traditionally been a country where a person was not necessarilly destined to be in the same social and economic class as their parents. there has been many places throughout the world and history where, the class your parents are born into is the class their children will be. with no choice in the matter.

america is obviously headed in that direction, but it's being done in a very stealthy way. i can definitely see a future where america has it's own caste system.

as long as people are kept in debt and kept ignorant we will have problems. as long as you are in debt you have to work, and as long as you are ignorant you wont be able to organize to challenge the status quo.

 

[the cac mamba]

at anyone cosignin the higher education system in this country

degree costs more and more, and its worth less and less. meanwhile college presidents give themselves 50% raises and textbooks are 300 dollars

 

[Johnny Kilroy]

Well, no one here is really talking about you. That's the problem. What's being discussed here is a finding regarding the largesse of American college students of lower income relative to their peers of the upper middle class and beyond. Of course there are going to be exceptions, but just because there are exceptions within the majority doesn't mean that those exceptions disprove the majority at all. Not understanding that you are a specific case within a multiplicity of cases is extremely shortsighted.

How would it look to say "There are rich blacks, therefore Blacks need to pipe down about their second class status within American society and do something about it?" To have that attitude is to be completely ignorant of the attitudes the majority of American society has had toward Blacks before America was even founded, the way that those attitudes have inhered themselves in the societal and cultural makeup of the state and the different ways that they have affected Blacks as a constructed community both from the outside (by those who taxonomize us for data/statistical purposes or via prejudice and racism, for instance) and the inside (via the cultural insiderism of the community, for better and worse).

Worse yet, attitudes such as this play right into the hands of the status quo, who use those exceptions as a rationale to leave the situations as they are, or worse, reduce them to a more deleterious state.

Nobody should be talking about me. Every individual student should be talking about themselves. That's my point.

What do a million other students have to do with Student A? Student A needs to get on his shyt.

You're kinda contradicting yourself. It's not about ME (because I'm not you) but it's about everybody else (who also aren't you).

While you dislike my attitude, I despise yours. "Well the majority fail so it's ok if I fail too." That's called a loser mentality.

The problem with black people is we look at EVERYBODY ELSE instead of OURSELVES. And by "ourselves" I'm not talking about "us" as a people. I'm talking about individuals. I don't give a damn how anybody sees me. I don't give a damn what anybody else is doing, black, white, whatever. None of that means anything to ME. None of that has any bearing on ME. Nor should it on any other individual unless they're looking for a BS cop out of an excuse for why they're not succeeding.

With all do respect, it's your bytch ass attitude and excuse making that's the problem, not me saying fukk all that, succeed regardless. You're just trying to justify failure. That's really upsetting to me. You would never be invited to my house for dinner. Your negative and pitiful attitude would not be welcome.

 

[TYBG]

at anyone cosignin the higher education system in this country

degree costs more and more, and its worth less and less. meanwhile college presidents give themselves 50% raises and textbooks are 300 dollars

This shyt kill me bruh fakkits make the books with "university edition" and new editions only fix errors/typos and change the date on homework problems. I was comparing two tax books and they only changed the year on the homework problems

 

[TrueEpic08]

Nobody should be talking about me. Every individual student should be talking about themselves. That's my point.

What do a million other students have to do with Student A? Student A needs to get on his shyt.

You're kinda contradicting yourself. It's not about ME (because I'm not you) but it's about everybody else (who also aren't you).

While you dislike my attitude, I despise yours. "Well the majority fail so it's ok if I fail too." That's called a loser mentality.

The problem with black people is we look at EVERYBODY ELSE instead of OURSELVES. And by "ourselves" I'm not talking about "us" as a people. I'm talking about individuals. I don't give a damn how anybody sees me. I don't give a damn what anybody else is doing, black, white, whatever. None of that means anything to ME. None of that has any bearing on ME. Nor should it on any other individual unless they're looking for a BS cop out of an excuse for why they're not succeeding.

With all do respect, it's your bytch ass attitude and excuse making that's the problem, not me saying fukk all that, succeed regardless. You're just trying to justify failure. That's really upsetting to me. You would never be invited to my house for dinner. Your negative and pitiful attitude would not be welcome.

You're not reading well, are you? Because I don't know where you constructed that binary from anything I wrote.

And you're not reading well, because you willfully fail to see my point. Dude, if I were as callous and short-sighted as you, I could make the same argument as you and use myself as an example. Lower-middle class Black kid goes to college and excels. Black kid proceeds to get afflicted with an acute case of Agoraphobia, which screws up his grades. Black kid proceeds to get help, transfers schools, gets his GPA back up, graduates and goes on to Grad School. Great story right?

If you ignore the all that happened inbetween.

For one, I never had public school problems (trust me, when I say this: There's a good chance that I'd have been a newspaper case if I went to public school. I got proper self-confidence partially because of the school that I went to). Instead, I went to a private high school that easily cost more to attend than any 5 schools the people on this board are alumni of combined. Most people in my situation either a). Wouldn't know about it, b). Wouldn't want to go because it's too white (and it was extremely white) or c). Wouldn't consider it because of how expensive it was. As a result of me going, I got one of the best educations in my state and connections nobody of my stature should've really gotten. HUGE exception to the rule.

My Agoraphobia, unlike most people on here, was actually treated like a mental issue instead of something you "just had to get over". Instead I got it dealt with. In addition to not being prisoner to the reductive, stultifying notions of Black manhood that would've impeded treatment, I also took advantage of the fact that I had a bunch of free counseling (thanks to my university) to get help and manage my condition. Most people don't even know that it exists. Count me a lucky exception.

Transferring. My financial aid got screwed up in a very similar way to one of the cases in the article, which would've left me short on money to go to school. Usually, people in my position would've been SOL. Luckily for me, I got to transfer to the school where my mother worked, which meant greatly reduced tuition and not having to worry about money nearly as much. Lucky exception.

I could go on and on. My success (and more than likely, yours too when you really look at it) is just as based on lucky circumstance as it is in my hard work. As a matter of fact, I'm an exception of an exception, with opportunities and knowledge of opportunities that a lot of lower-middle class Black kids would have no knowledge of.

In the end, though, I'm just an exception, just as you are. There's no reason whatsoever to talk about ourselves. Not because I or anybody else haven't succeeded (and I guarantee that my story isn't even close to the harshest one here. Not even close), but because of the fact that, as much as you want to deny it or attempt to get around it, the development of American society, culture and the type of economy and even the very nature of the spaces that were born from that cultural development have much more bearing on how you'll turn out than what you'll do. Hell, what you'll do and what you'll even think is ordered more by those structures and role within them (call it biopower if you'd like, though there's much more to it than just that) than just what you yourself think is possible. The very nature of what you think is possible is ordered by that historical development.

No one's trying to justify failure, we're trying to find a way for all to succeed within a system that is made for us of lesser regard not to do so. Sometimes, people can't succeed regardless of all of that, and if they do, it's more about the contingent nature of their situation than about anything they'd like to do (yes, this applies to rich whites too, as it applies to everyone. Nothing is the case for every situation, there are only situations within which certain cases are created). To not understand how any of this bears on you or anybody else of lesser regard in this culture is to be willfully blind, and to just say "succeed" without understanding any of this is to be willfully reductive.

And honestly, I'd rather not be invited to dinner by someone who understands so little, and yet is so condescending. So thanks for not including my on your invite list.

 

[Gus Money]

If you can't get a pell grant you're not a low income student.
That's basic financial aid, breh.

I don't really care what sociologists say because they're talking about the whole. Why wouldn't I focus on me? Just like you should focus on you and the next man should focus on himself. If 99% of the people fail I don't see what that has to do with ME.

We're just coming from 2 different angles. You're talking macro and I'm talking micro. So again, it boils down to the individual. Some people look at other's failures and doubt themselves. Some people look at other's failures, shrug, and KIM. I don't give a fukk about the statistics and neither should anyone else. What does a million people failing before me have to do with me?

This problem is impossible to solve from a macro point of view. Each individual needs to handle theirs.

While you're mentioning different circumstances you're failing to acknowledge different levels of ambition and drive. If you truly want to succeed, you will.

Is it possible? Then do it or stfu. Plain and simple.

BTW, that wasn't a motivational phrase earlier. It's the truth.

I know how financial aid works. I was using that as an example. The bolded statements are really hurting your credibility on this topic.

I agree individual responsibility is necessary, but that's not the only path to solving the issues that I mentioned before. Changes at the policy level can have a large-scale effect.

One person succeeding despite the odds doesn't mean that the odds are beatable for everyone. That is the point you're missing.

No one's trying to justify failure, we're trying to find a way for all to succeed within a system that is made for us of lesser regard not to do so. Sometimes, people can't succeed regardless of all of that, and if they do, it's more about the contingent nature of their situation than about anything they'd like to do (yes, this applies to rich whites too, as it applies to everyone. Nothing is the case for every situation, there are only situations within which certain cases are created). To not understand how any of this bears on you or anybody else of lesser regard in this culture is to be willfully blind, and to just say "succeed" without understanding any of this is to be willfully reductive.

That about sums it up.

 

[Johnny Kilroy]

You're not reading well, are you? Because I don't know where you constructed that binary from anything I wrote.

And you're not reading well, because you willfully fail to see my point. Dude, if I were as callous and short-sighted as you, I could make the same argument as you and use myself as an example. Lower-middle class Black kid goes to college and excels. Black kid proceeds to get afflicted with an acute case of Agoraphobia, which screws up his grades. Black kid proceeds to get help, transfers schools, gets his GPA back up, graduates and goes on to Grad School. Great story right?

If you ignore the all that happened inbetween.

For one, I never had public school problems (trust me, when I say this: There's a good chance that I'd have been a newspaper case if I went to public school. I got proper self-confidence partially because of the school that I went to). Instead, I went to a private high school that easily cost more to attend than any 5 schools the people on this board are alumni of combined. Most people in my situation either a). Wouldn't know about it, b). Wouldn't want to go because it's too white (and it was extremely white) or c). Wouldn't consider it because of how expensive it was. As a result of me going, I got one of the best educations in my state and connections nobody of my stature should've really gotten. HUGE exception to the rule.

My Agoraphobia, unlike most people on here, was actually treated like a mental issue instead of something you "just had to get over". Instead I got it dealt with. In addition to not being prisoner to the reductive, stultifying notions of Black manhood that would've impeded treatment, I also took advantage of the fact that I had a bunch of free counseling (thanks to my university) to get help and manage my condition. Most people don't even know that it exists. Count me a lucky exception.

Transferring. My financial aid got screwed up in a very similar way to one of the cases in the article, which would've left me short on money to go to school. Usually, people in my position would've been SOL. Luckily for me, I got to transfer to the school where my mother worked, which meant greatly reduced tuition and not having to worry about money nearly as much. Lucky exception.

I could go on and on. My success (and more than likely, yours too when you really look at it) is just as based on lucky circumstance as it is in my hard work. As a matter of fact, I'm an exception of an exception, with opportunities and knowledge of opportunities that a lot of lower-middle class Black kids would have no knowledge of.

In the end, though, I'm just an exception, just as you are. There's no reason whatsoever to talk about ourselves. Not because I or anybody else haven't succeeded (and I guarantee that my story isn't even close to the harshest one here. Not even close), but because of the fact that, as much as you want to deny it or attempt to get around it, the development of American society, culture and the type of economy and even the very nature of the spaces that were born from that cultural development have much more bearing on how you'll turn out than what you'll do. Hell, what you'll do and what you'll even think is ordered more by those structures and role within them (call it biopower if you'd like, though there's much more to it than just that) than just what you yourself think is possible. The very nature of what you think is possible is ordered by that historical development.

No one's trying to justify failure, we're trying to find a way for all to succeed within a system that is made for us of lesser regard not to do so. Sometimes, people can't succeed regardless of all of that, and if they do, it's more about the contingent nature of their situation than about anything they'd like to do (yes, this applies to rich whites too, as it applies to everyone. Nothing is the case for every situation, there are only situations within which certain cases are created). To not understand how any of this bears on you or anybody else of lesser regard in this culture is to be willfully blind, and to just say "succeed" without understanding any of this is to be willfully reductive.

And honestly, I'd rather not be invited to dinner by someone who understands so little, and yet is so condescending. So thanks for not including my on your invite list.

With all do respect, you sound like a lil bytch. :hov:

I'm not reading well, because cotdamn that's a long post.

And I'm not reading well because you're all over the place.

You say individual cases don't matter but then proceed to write a dissertation about your individual case?

Furthermore, you went to private school. You have nothing to do with this thread, breh.

Your case has to do with you agoraphobia, not being a poor student. How many poor students have agoraphobia? So how many students can use "I'm a bytch because I went to public school and they didn't treat my agoraphobia" as an excuse?

One can easily fall through the cracks, no doubt. And in fact, I certainly won't argue with anyone who claims it's setup that way. But every individual has a choice to either close their eyes, lay back and fall on through that crack or they can man up, scratch and claw until they succeed. A choice you seem to have a problem with.

Yall nikkas is poutin cuz you expect somebody to hold your hand through life. Damn I sound like a republican now but I get sick of these fukkin sob stories. And let's stop beating around the bush with this "low income" bullshyt. We know they mean black people and I think we as a people, and more importantly as INDIVIDUALS, need to grew some pairs and take responsibility for our own actions. There is no "us" as a people if we as individuals can't get right. How you gon uplift somebody else when you can't even bench the bar without help from a spotter?

 

[Johnny Kilroy]

I know how financial aid works. I was using that as an example. The bolded statements are really hurting your credibility on this topic.

I agree individual responsibility is necessary, but that's not the only path to solving the issues that I mentioned before. Changes at the policy level can have a large-scale effect.

One person succeeding despite the odds doesn't mean that the odds are beatable for everyone. That is the point you're missing.


That about sums it up.

What example? You said not everyone can get a pell grant. What point were you trying to make when you said that? Example? That doesn't make any sense at all.

As far as what you bolded you feel that way because you're looking at the situation in macro, while I'm coming from micro. Sociologists will talk about a million people at once. I'm only talking about 1 person.

You talk about one person succeeding while you fail to mention how such a person succeeds. Is there a difference between those who succeed and those who don't? You're making it seem like everyone is a machine and puts forth the same effort.

 

[TrueEpic08]

With all do respect, you sound like a lil bytch. :hov:

I'm not reading well, because cotdamn that's a long post.

And I'm not reading well because you're all over the place.

You say individual cases don't matter but then proceed to write a dissertation about your individual case?

Furthermore, you went to private school. You have nothing to do with this thread, breh.

Your case has to do with you agoraphobia, not being a poor student. How many poor students have agoraphobia? So how many students can use "I'm a bytch because I went to public school and they didn't treat my agoraphobia" as an excuse?

One can easily fall through the cracks, no doubt. And in fact, I certainly won't argue with anyone who claims it's setup that way. But every individual has a choice to either close their eyes, lay back and fall on through that crack or they can man up, scratch and claw until they succeed. A choice you seem to have a problem with.

Yall nikkas is poutin cuz you expect somebody to hold your hand through life. Damn I sound like a republican now but I get sick of these fukkin sob stories. And let's stop beating around the bush with this "low income" bullshyt. We know they mean black people and I think we as a people, and more importantly as INDIVIDUALS, need to grew some pairs and take responsibility for our own actions. There is no "us" as a people if we as individuals can't get right. How you gon uplift somebody else when you can't even bench the bar without help from a spotter?

Man, you're still not reading well. You're grossly missing the point of why I wrote that to go for easily mockable elements of that post.

I could just point you to what @Gus Money quoted from it and leave it at that, but I'll restate it for you: The reason I wrote about my own case is exactly because its just one case. And it's only one case within a cultural structure that affects all individual cases. Now they don't affect them in the same way, and depending on your situation, it will affect one more than another. I just happened to be one that had very fortunate circumstances, but I can tell you many other cases in which it didn't work out. Some even from private schools just like mine, with situations similar to mine. Not because they didn't want to, but because their situation didn't allow them to take the type of path that I took.

(Note: "How many poor students have Agoraphobia?" is the kind of reductive garbage that I'm talking about. Seeing as it and other mental illnesses in the poor and the black often go undiagnosed because of a lack of means and an unwillingness to consider mental illness, you, nor myself and anyone else more than likely don't know the exact number or even a good approximate number, for that matter.

Oh, and those two cases that you tried to narratively relate, really weren't related. Public school wasn't for me because they aren't really built for the type of person I was at the time, while my Agoraphobic case came when I was 20-21. And if you actually knew anything about the phobia, studies show that it usually doesn't occur in people younger than about 18. Don't assume what you don't know or haven't researched.)

I'll write it again: No one's saying not to tell someone to succeed in their situation. Just that it's ignorant to blithely do so, while ignorant of factors that may lead to them not doing so. Also, you're missing the point of why we keep saying "forget your own case" beyond what I wrote above: Because you have to apply what I wrote above in aiding others, whether it be through academia, in a social work setting (two situations I'm quite familiar with), one-on-one, counseling, whatever, you have to be able to think both the individual line and the differing elements of the social line(s) at the same time and combine them when the need arises. Thinking one, as you're doing, and subsuming or eliminating the other as unimportant or unnecessary, is just as harmful as not thinking it at all.

 

[TrueEpic08]

What example? You said not everyone can get a pell grant. What point were you trying to make when you said that? Example? That doesn't make any sense at all.

As far as what you bolded you feel that way because you're looking at the situation in macro, while I'm coming from micro. Sociologists will talk about a million people at once. I'm only talking about 1 person.

You talk about one person succeeding while you fail to mention how such a person succeeds. Is there a difference between those who succeed and those who don't? You're making it seem like everyone is a machine and puts forth the same effort.

Oh, and this is a false construction and binary as well. They both meld into each other so much as to make the way in which you conceive of this and state it near-irrelevant to this discussion, at least in the way in which you understand it.