Sooo....no talk on Kiev's gradual descent into Mad Max beyond Thunderdome status??

[Json]

If we didn’t expand NATO this would not had happened. How would the US react if Haiti,DR,Jamaica, Honduras and Nicaragua joined a Chinese military alliance and host bases to house Chinese troops in the Western Hemisphere while having Mexico mulling joining this Chinese military alliance? The situation in Ukraine is the Wet fault. And I’m not alone in this sentiment many realist western foreign policy thinkers in the US government think this. The problem is people in the West thing great power competitions died at the end of the Cold War. It didn’t. And we are seeing the rise of Chinas power as an example of Great Power competition is alive and well. So Russia reaction made sense it’s just 21st century people can’t fathom that great power politics from the 19th century is alive and well. Meanwhile the US exercise great power politics in the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine.

What?

Putin has had a grip on power for twenty years through overt and puppet power.

They might not even need a strong NATO if this dude stepped aside like a normal politician and let new dynamics and coalitions form.

Instead we got some ex-KGB agent trying to relive a Soviet Union fantasy most of these countries’ populace don’t even remember.

 

[ZoeGod]

What?

Putin has had a grip on power for twenty years through overt and puppet power.

They might not even need a strong NATO if this dude stepped aside like a normal politician and let new dynamics and coalitions form.

Instead we got some ex-KGB agent trying to relive a Soviet Union fantasy most of these countries’ populace don’t even remember.

This is the typical western thinking. Y’all are acting like Russia is doing this out of nowhere. NATO was expanding eastward years before Putin came to power. And the US promised Russia they would not expand NATO at the end of the Cold War. They broke it. I again stand by what I said the West is at fault for the mess in Ukraine. If the US was facing the same thing they would have done exactly what Putin is doing. This Washington policy thinker who is a realist has the same views. He is not a Russian-phile. He is a Cold War realist.

 

[Json]

This is the typical western thinking. Y’all are acting like Russia is doing this out of nowhere. NATO was expanding eastward years before Putin came to power. And the US promised Russia they would not expand NATO at the end of the Cold War. They broke it. I again stand by what I said the West is at fault for the mess in Ukraine. If the US was facing the same thing they would have done exactly what Putin is doing. This Washington policy thinker who is a realist has the same views. He is not a Russian-phile. He is a Cold War realist.

Dude.

The Soviet Union faltered and the reunification of Germany required all of it to be protected as a NATO Germany which Russia objected to.

Those former Russian states asked for inclusion because East Germany under Russia was in shambles and they had a chance to rebuild. So which would they choose to look like…East or West Germany?

You are acting like an apologist for Russian paranoia. They ran things badly for decades.


You don’t have an entire region of the world collapse economically and just sit back cause of a prideful countries unsubstantiated fear.

Nothing was stopping Russia from joining closer to Europe except entrenched pride of a bygone era that Putin is apart of.


If the US did it it’s dumb and bad.
Putin doing it is dumb and bad. We agree?


The fact Russia has to retake these areas by force instead of by shared cultural sphere is all that needs to be said about what they think of Russia.

 

[Geek Nasty]

Dudes acting like NATO is a galactic empire. Membership is voluntary. Countries join because they want protection from Russian invasion. Plus we gave some of these countries security guarantees in exchange for giving up nukes.

But go ahead and keep parroting Russian Facebook propaganda .

 

[King Kreole]

Dudes acting like NATO is a galactic empire. Membership is voluntary. Countries join because they want protection from Russian invasion. Plus we gave some of these countries security guarantees in exchange for giving up nukes.

But go ahead and keep parroting Russian Facebook propaganda .

Dude.

The Soviet Union faltered and the reunification of Germany required all of it to be protected as a NATO Germany which Russia objected to.

Those former Russian states asked for inclusion because East Germany under Russia was in shambles and they had a chance to rebuild. So which would they choose to look like…East or West Germany?

You are acting like an apologist for Russian paranoia. They ran things badly for decades.


You don’t have an entire region of the world collapse economically and just sit back cause of a prideful countries unsubstantiated fear.

Nothing was stopping Russia from joining closer to Europe except entrenched pride of a bygone era that Putin is apart of.


If the US did it it’s dumb and bad.
Putin doing it is dumb and bad. We agree?


The fact Russia has to retake these areas by force instead of by shared cultural sphere is all that needs to be said about what they think of Russia.

I don't think @ZoeGod is passing moral judgment, he's talking action and reaction. Try to pet a rabid dog and be shocked you get bit, brehs. As he said, if a bunch of Central and South American countries joined a military organization helmed by China and the US told them to relax but instead they start making entreaties to Mexico, how you think the US is going to react?

 

[Geek Nasty]

I don't think @ZoeGod is passing moral judgment, he's talking action and reaction. Try to pet a rabid dog and be shocked you get bit, brehs. As he said, if a bunch of Central and South American countries joined a military organization helmed by China and the US told them to relax but instead they start making entreaties to Mexico, how you think the US is going to react?

I dont put China and Russia on equal footing with the US

 

[Json]

I don't think @ZoeGod is passing moral judgment, he's talking action and reaction. Try to pet a rabid dog and be shocked you get bit, brehs. As he said, if a bunch of Central and South American countries joined a military organization helmed by China and the US told them to relax but instead they start making entreaties to Mexico, how you think the US is going to react?

Ignoring the major differences between simple placing missiles and economic mobility to distressed Eastern European former USSR of NATO involvement.

Your buying into a flawed narrative is what I’m trying to tell you. That poster is pushing that same” well X country was doing fine before America” even though the history of the USSR has been unstable for most of the 20th century.

It’s dumb if the US did for the same reasons Putin is doing it.

Name one country who has been benefited by trying to reclaim past glory status.

Russia is a hobbled super power.




People complain about 70 and 80’ year old politicians holding office for too long like Biden and Pelosi but when I say Putin needed to move along for Russia to progress hopefully I’m getting “well America would do it, too”

 

[Brehcepticon]

Crimean War Part 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[King Kreole]

I dont put China and Russia on equal footing with the US

I think the Chinese and Russians would disagree

Ignoring the major differences between simple placing missiles and economic mobility to distressed Eastern European former USSR of NATO involvement.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. The US and her various NGO/IGO fronts have been engaging in both military and economic interference in that region for decades. I don't think it's unreasonable for Putin to feel as though his interests are being threatened by these activities and postures. Do you?

Your buying into a flawed narrative is what I’m trying to tell you. That poster is pushing that same” well X country was doing fine before America” even though the history of the USSR has been unstable for most of the 20th century.

It’s dumb if the US did for the same reasons Putin is doing it.

Name one country who has been benefited by trying to reclaim past glory status.

Russia is a hobbled super power.




People complain about 70 and 80’ year old politicians holding office for too long like Biden and Pelosi but when I say Putin needed to move along for Russia to progress hopefully I’m getting “well America would do it, too”

I don't think anything in argument is presupposing "X country (Ukraine?) was doing fine before America", the point is about what actions have led to Putin adopting this posture. Looking at Russian actions as if they are taking place within a vacuum absent the actions of the US/NATO would be a fundamentally incomplete analysis.

Again, none of this is a justification or defense of Putin's actions, it's more an explanation. You can say it's dumb, and I might even be inclined to agree with you, but that has no bearing on the whether it happens or not. US/NATO's actions do.

 

[Json]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. The US and her various NGO/IGO fronts have been engaging in both military and economic interference in that region for decades. I don't think it's unreasonable for Putin to feel as though his interests are being threatened by these activities and postures. Do you?

No. What threat? NATO doesn’t want to take Moscow. It’s a frigid wasteland.Do you think Ukraine as an independent nation wouldn’t have economic deals with Russia? Russia pays them money for access to ports..shipping… like any other country.

There was an economic collapse of a major empire.

Have you ever seen the difference between East and West Berlin? If Europe had just left those former Soviet areas to Russia’s control they would have been dealing with a humanitarian crisis of major proportions.


Again. Putin can’t accept that these countries don’t want to be apart of Russia.

America sucks but places like Puerto Rico still want to be states. Why do you think none of the former counties want to rejoin?

I don't think anything in argument is presupposing "X country (Ukraine?) was doing fine before America", the point is about what actions have led to Putin adopting this posture. Looking at Russian actions as if they are taking place within a vacuum absent the actions of the US/NATO would be a fundamentally incomplete analysis.

X country is Russia. And no one is forgetting the context. That’s my whole point.

Knowing how corrupt Russian oligarchs run the country. How can anyone act like well Europe pushed Putin.

By defacto logic Putin wouldn’t be in power if he wasn’t corrupt.

Someone who would actually reform the country and make closer friendly ties to Europe would be murdered.

So a country run by a mafia and acts like a mafia but it’s somehow Europe is in the wrong for treating them like a mafia?




Also the context of why that China in South America analogy is flawed is because China has a giant sea barrier from America. There’s no need to put military in South America except as aggression. Economic ties is different.The only reason we are in the area is because they came over here.

Russia and Europe are a stone throw away.

 

[ZoeGod]

No. What threat? NATO doesn’t want to take Moscow. It’s a frigid wasteland.Do you think Ukraine as an independent nation wouldn’t have economic deals with Russia? Russia pays them money for access to ports..shipping… like any other country.

There was an economic collapse of a major empire.

Have you ever seen the difference between East and West Berlin? If Europe had just left those former Soviet areas to Russia’s control they would have been dealing with a humanitarian crisis of major proportions.


Again. Putin can’t accept that these countries don’t want to be apart of Russia.

America sucks but places like Puerto Rico still want to be states. Why do you think none of the former counties want to rejoin?


X country is Russia. And no one is forgetting the context. That’s my whole point.

Knowing how corrupt Russian oligarchs run the country. How can anyone act like well Europe pushed Putin.

By defacto logic Putin wouldn’t be in power if he wasn’t corrupt.

Someone who would actually reform the country and make closer friendly ties to Europe would be murdered.

So a country run by a mafia and acts like a mafia but it’s somehow Europe is in the wrong for treating them like a mafia?




Also the context of why that China in South America analogy is flawed is because China has a giant sea barrier from America. There’s no need to put military in South America except as aggression. Economic ties is different.The only reason we are in the area is because they came over here.

Russia and Europe are a stone throw away.

The United States policy since the end of the Cold War was the spread of democracy. We saw that in Clinton with the intervention in Haiti, with Dubya in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Obama with Libya and Syria, Trump kept troops in the Mideast to continue that policy. Moscow and Beijing hate that because they do not want their regimes to topple. So when Russia sees nato expanding they see it as part of the plan to form color revolutions against Russia. Liberal hegemonist in both parties want to continue the policy of spreading democracy around the world. This is why Russia and China are working to create a multipolar world. So them that is a threat.

Your other points is just emotional talk and all over the place. The thing is regional powers have sphere of influences. That’s the reality of the world. The US treats the Western Hemisphere as it’s sphere influence because it’s the head honcho and no one can challenge them. The conflicts the US has with China,Russia and Iran is that these regional hegemonic want exert power over their local spheres of influence. The US is against that and wants to end that. In Washington there is a belief that great power competition days are over and that only one superpower should dictate influence around the world. That’s that “End of History” bullshyt that was spouted in the 90s. The thing was Russia and China were too weak to challenge America in the 90s. Times changed. Russia recovered from the economic doldrums of the 90s and has greatly reformed their military. Chinas military has been modernizing at a rapid rate since the 2000s. So much so the Pentagon forecast that China will be at parity with the US within the next 10 years. Great power competition is back.
And your last point is weak. There is a sea barrier between the US and Europe. Yet there is US military bases in the continent. The US is the boss of the EU. The EU members are effectively US client states. Most EU members are part of the NATO. The EU doesn’t do anything without US approval. So yes we can make that same comparison if a Chinese military alliance was expanding in Latin America which is the US’s backyard.

 

[Json]

The United States policy since the end of the Cold War was the spread of democracy. We saw that in Clinton with the intervention in Haiti, with Dubya in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Obama with Libya and Syria, Trump kept troops in the Mideast to continue that policy. Moscow and Beijing hate that because they do not want their regimes to topple. So when Russia sees nato expanding they see it as part of the plan to form color revolutions against Russia. Liberal hegemonist in both parties want to continue the policy of spreading democracy around the world. This is why Russia and China are working to create a multipolar world. So them that is a threat.

China is a separate issue since it wasn’t a major power until 20 years ago.

You rode right past the point. Russia was supposed to be institute Democratic reforms. You are using terms like regimes. Free and fair elections. Human rights. Not killing opposition. What Putin is doing is not a democratic reform.

So you are making my point that Putin staying in power is creating the tensions he doesn’t like cause his power is corrupt.


What’s your answer to why the former countries don’t want to come back?

Your other points is just emotional talk and all over the place. The thing is regional powers have sphere of influences. That’s the reality of the world. The US treats the Western Hemisphere as it’s sphere influence because it’s the head honcho and no one can challenge them. The conflicts the US has with China,Russia and Iran is that these regional hegemonic want exert power over their local spheres of influence. The US is against that and wants to end that. In Washington there is a belief that great power competition days are over and that only one superpower should dictate influence around the world. That’s that “End of History” bullshyt that was spouted in the 90s. The thing was Russia and China were too weak to challenge America in the 90s. Times changed. Russia recovered from the economic doldrums of the 90s and has greatly refined their military. Chinas military has been modernizing at a rapid rate since the 2000s. So much so the Pentagon forecast that China will be at the same level with the US within the next 10 years. Great power competition is back.
And your last point is weak. There is a sea barrier between the US and Europe. Yet there is US military bases in the continent. The US is the boss of the EU. The EU members are effectively US client states. Most EU members are part of the NATO. The EU doesn’t do anything without US approval. So yes we can make that same comparison if a Chinese military alliance was expanding in Latin America which is the US’s backyard.

I never said they didn’t.

I said Putin and his oligarch masters can’t accept that they don’t have the sphere of influence they used to so they are taking it by force like a reverse mafia protection scheme.

iDK. If they don’t want NATO to exist. Don’t act like a country the reason NATO exist. Bullying it’s neighbors.



History isn’t your strong suit. All those bases appeared after a war. So unless South America turns WW3. Your China in the Americas argument is just lame, emotional fear mongering.

 

[ZoeGod]

China is a separate issue since it wasn’t a major power until 20 years ago.

You rode right past the point. Russia was supposed to be institute Democratic reforms. You are using terms like regimes. Free and fair elections. Human rights. Not killing opposition. What Putin is doing is not a democratic reform.

So you are making my point that Putin staying in power is creating the tensions he doesn’t like cause his power is corrupt.


What’s your answer to why the former countries don’t want to come back?






I never said they didn’t.

I said Putin and his oligarch masters can’t accept that they don’t have the sphere of influence they used to so they are taking it by force like a reverse mafia protection scheme.

iDK. If they don’t want NATO to exist. Don’t act like a country the reason NATO exist. Bullying it’s neighbors.



History isn’t your strong suit. All those bases appeared after a war. So unless South America turns WW3. Your China in the Americas argument is just lame, emotional fear mongering.

Listen to the thing that you listed. "Democratic reforms." "Human rights" "Not killing opposition." These are all buzzwords that the elite on Washington talk about. All of that is part of the policy the US has been gung-ho. upon since the end of the Cold War. In the West that works for us but different nations have different mindsets. Just because we have those things doesn't mean Russia has the institutions to have a democracy. Russia has been ruled by autocrats throughout its history. It has worked for Russia. Just because we have democracy(even though in the US we have a rising far right wing fascist movement undermining American democracy plunging us into one party right wing rule) doesnt mean it would work for Russia. Certain countries have to held together by autocratic rule. I am going to say the quiet part out loud not every nation is ready for democracy. If that was the case the US would push their Persian gulf monarch allies to. embrace democracy but they don't.

To the question of the former countries that don't want to go back to. Russian influence. You make good points. However in the Western Hemisphere there is countries who do not want to be US influence but they can't. Venezuela dared to oppose America and look at it. The mess they are in its their own fault but US sanctions made things worse. They tried to oust Maduro but it failed. They tried the same with Chavez. The US does the same bullying tactics in Latin America. The cold harsh reality is you can't save everyone. Geopolitics is a cold and harsh game. The US doesnt care for the Eastern European countries because of their plight. They are using them, as pawns to contain Russia. And they started this way before Putin came to power after promising they would not. The best solution is let Russia have their influence instead of this bone head idea of pushing NATO/EU expansion which will antagonize Russia and lead to more conflict and destabilization. You call what Putin is doing is "mafia tactics" but I call it great power exertion. This what great powers have been doing since the beginning of time. The same "mafia tactics," is what the US does in Latin America to this day.

 

[Json]

Listen to the thing that you listed. "Democratic reforms." "Human rights" "Not killing opposition." These are all buzzwords that the elite on Washington talk about. All of that is part of the policy the US has been gung-ho. upon since the end of the Cold War. In the West that works for us but different nations have different mindsets. Just because we have those things doesn't mean Russia has the institutions to have a democracy. Russia has been ruled by autocrats throughout its history. It has worked for Russia. Just because we have democracy(even though in the US we have a rising far right wing fascist movement undermining American democracy plunging us into one party right wing rule) doesnt mean it would work for Russia. Certain countries have to held together by autocratic rule. I am going to say the quiet part out loud not every nation is ready for democracy. If that was the case the US would push their Persian gulf monarch allies to. embrace democracy but they don't.

To the question of the former countries that don't want to go back to. Russian influence. You make good points. However in the Western Hemisphere there is countries who do not want to be US influence but they can't. Venezuela dared to oppose America and look at it. The mess they are in its their own fault but US sanctions made things worse. They tried to oust Maduro but it failed. They tried the same with Chavez. The US does the same bullying tactics in Latin America. The cold harsh reality is you can't save everyone. Geopolitics is a cold and harsh game. The US doesnt care for the Eastern European countries because of their plight. They are using them, as pawns to contain Russia. And they started this way before Putin came to power after promising they would not. The best solution is let Russia have their influence instead of this bone head idea of pushing NATO/EU expansion which will antagonize Russia and lead to more conflict and destabilization. You call what Putin is doing is "mafia tactics" but I call it great power exertion. This what great powers have been doing since the beginning of time. The same "mafia tactics," is what the US does in Latin America to this day.

Listen. I don’t know where your from but if you can’t agree that anex-KGB operative poisoning former spies on foreign soil or jailing opposition isn’t wrong we got nothing to talk about.

If it’s wrong for imperialist America to install puppet leaders it’s not okay for Russia just because you believe they are too remedial to understand their actions like a “big boy” superpower.


If Russia can’t move pass Cold War era maneuvering like killing opponents then don’t get weirded out when Western Europe treats them like the Cold War is still going and keeps NATO on its neck.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

GOAT thread.

Yall weren’t there.