88m3
Fast Money & Foreign Objects
Well the Soviet Union disappeared and that wasn't a result of the Vietnam War, I think I would need more evidence and examples, friend.
We're also talking about external forces, not internal.
Somalia's al-Shabab commanders 'killed' in strike
- Thread starter 88m3
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Well the Soviet Union disappeared and that wasn't a result of the Vietnam War, I think I would need more evidence and examples, friend.
We're also talking about external forces, not internal.
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Vietnam is a fine example. The war there was started to contain CHINESE influence, not Soviet. China still stands, it didn't disappear. Yet, that being said, China and Vietnam are in the top 10 trading partners with the US.
They really did a good job with the Containment Doctrine. Now let's go apply that to Africa since it worked so well the last 2 times we did it (Vietnam and Iraq).
88m3
Fast Money & Foreign Objects
Vietnam was an ideological battleground of the Sino-Soviet split of the 1960s. After the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964, Chinese Premier Deng Xiaoping secretly promised the North Vietnamese 1 billion yuan in military and economic aid, on the condition that they refused all Soviet aid.
During the Vietnam War, the North Vietnamese and the Chinese had agreed to defer tackling their territorial issues until South Vietnam was defeated. These issues included the lack of delineation of Vietnam's territorial waters in the Gulf of Tonkin, and the question of sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands in the South China Sea.[1] During the 1950s, half of the Paracels were controlled by China and half by South Vietnam. In 1958, North Vietnam accepted China's claim to the Paracels, relinquishing its own claim;[22] one year earlier, China had ceded White Dragon Tail Island to North Vietnam.[23] The potential of offshore oil deposits in the Gulf of Tonkin heightened tensions between China and South Vietnam. In 1973, with the Vietnam War drawing to a close, North Vietnam announced its intention to allow foreign companies to explore oil deposits in disputed waters. In January 1974, a clash between Chinese and South Vietnamese forces resulted in China taking complete control of the Paracels.[1] After its absorption of South Vietnam in 1975, North Vietnam took over the South Vietnamese-controlled portions of the Spratly Islands.[1] The unified Vietnam then canceled its earlier renunciation of its claim to the Paracels, while both China and Vietnam claim control over all the Spratlys, while both controlling portions of the island group.[22]
Main article: Sino-Vietnamese War
In the wake of the Vietnam War, Vietnam's 1978 invasion and occupation of Cambodia provoked tensions with China, which had allied itself with the Democratic Republic of Kampuchea.[1][24] This, and Vietnam's close ties to the Soviet Union, made China consider it a threat to its regional sphere of influence.[24][25] Tensions were furthermore heightened in the 1970s by the Vietnamese government's oppression of the Hoa minority, which consists of Vietnamese of Chinese ethnicity.[1][24][25] By 1978, China ended its aid to Vietnam, which had signed a treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union, establishing extensive commercial and military ties.[1][24]
On February 17, 1979, the Chinese People's Liberation Army crossed the Vietnamese border, withdrawing on March 5 after a two-week campaign which devastated northern Vietnam and briefly threatened the Vietnamese capital, Hanoi.[1][25] Both sides suffered relatively heavy losses, with Chinese casualties put at over 10,000 and Vietnamese casualties at over 30,000. Subsequent peace talks broke down in December 1979, and both China and Vietnam began a major build-up of forces along the border. Vietnam fortified its border towns and districts and stationed as many as 600,000 troops; China stationed approximately 400,000 troops on its side of the border.[25] Sporadic fighting on the border occurred throughout the 1980s, and China threatened to launch another attack to force Vietnam's exit from Cambodia.[1][25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Vietnam_relations
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What does this have to do with what I said? The Pentagon Papers revealed the purpose of the war from a military perspective: Chinese Containment.
Negged you fakkit.
Where you from?
This has already been tried and the United States has found out the hard way that leaving these regions to rot on their own turned out to have a much bigger cost down the line. In the case of Somalia, the 24/hr security around the coast line and further costs over 20bn a year, that amount alone dwarfs any amount of aid given to this entire region in the past two decades. How about the cost of the famines? How about the cost of the UN/AMISON forces in the region to enforce peace? How about the safe havens given to terrorists that plot international attacks like the one in Kenya? How about the cost of an entire generation of children brought with no education except radical ideology and superstition? Trust me the cost of sitting idle is much bigger than active involvement in the region.
Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
- Prolly wouldn't have that issue if illegal overfishing, pollution, and other transnational fukkery wasn't going on within their waters.
- Somalia didn't really become the terrorist hub it became until the overthrow of the ICU on the advice of the Bush administration.
- You can say that about every country in Africa damn near. Are we gonna sit here and act as if African nations and its people were truly left to make decisions and benefit from their lands on their own? Every puppet has strings, and if you can't make em a puppet you can buy them, if you can't buy them you con them, if you can't con them you just kill em indirectly.
It's just funny that there's an idea of sitting idly by, when a lot of the major powers are totally complicit in the modern day instability in East Africa. At this point the only involvement needed is getting rid of the extremists their foreign polices created. Beyond that they can go fukk themselves.
The ICU itself was a terrorist organisation that instituted Taliban like Shariah law. Just because they brought peace to a city doesn't mean they were "good guys". Taliban subjugated and brought peace to Afghanistan, and we all know how that turned out.
- You can say that about every country in Africa damn near. Are we gonna sit here and act as if African nations and its people were truly left to make decisions and benefit from their lands on their own? Every puppet has strings, and if you can't make em a puppet you can buy them, if you can't buy them you con them, if you can't con them you just kill em indirectly. [/quote[
It's just funny that there's an idea of sitting idly by, when a lot of the major powers are totally complicit in the modern day instability in East Africa. At this point the only involvement needed is getting rid of the extremists their foreign polices created. Beyond that they can go fukk themselves.
These are the same conspiracies that are usually commonplace in the Middle East that people use to explain the causes of their own misery and humiliation , "the US has a hand in everything...it seeks to pervert the progress of said nation....poor us, we can't do anything to better ourselves and our nation because scary America has complete dominance over us". Trying to blame a quarter century of civil war, caused mainly by tribal warfare and ignorance on "foreigners"? Pathetic excuse with no evidence, and you know that.
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Is that a fact? You got a link for me? Cuz I'm sure Somali brehs like @FAH1223 and @thatknicksfan have said different for quite awhile. al Shabab was part of the ICU but as far as I know it was kept in check by the ICU. It was much more moderate than you make it seem. In fact, I notice that a lot of the violence returned upon the ICU's ouster.
lol, and you equating Somalia's problems to the 20+ years of anarchy alone is a pathetic retort.
Look, you can deny the reality of economic powers playing hegemonic chess games with countries in the Horn and Middle East but doesn't make them any less true.
http://www.kon.org/urc/v10/schulz.html <----Links to the effects the Cold War had on Somalia.
http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/government/war/somalia_war/news.php?q=1241733095
Just so we're clear, Somalia's issues are much more complicated than bytchin about America.
theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
this is so true, shyt is pathetic and an intellectual, political and economic dead end
The ICU wasn't a terrorist organization. It was a coalition of ideologies and factions that were able to defeat the CIA backed warlords in Mogadishu who had control of the city split up in dozens of ways.
Al Shabaab was the armed wing and while they did have stupid policies of trying to ban people from watching the World Cup in 2006 and music
they weren't the animal that we're dealing with today in Southern Somalia. The Ethiopian invasion definitely emboldened them and got them big headed esp when Ethiopia withdrew in 2009.The Bush administration messed up big time with Somalia. I actually agree with @theworldismine13 that Obama has been better but at the end of the day, if the US is going to be engaged with Somalia, it has to be proactive and the big steps that AMISOM has to do is train and build a professional army in Somalia. The Somali gov't is too damn lackadaisical and the infighting and inefficiencies are plaguing it just as the previous transitional governments. Security is spotty and things right now are at a standstill with regards to political development there.
I think the whole structure of government needs an overhaul as the roles of the President and Prime Minister are confused and the constitution was pretty poor.