So Europeans during slave trade knew Israel was in Africa

[Supper]

Um.... The Swahili civilizations were and they sailed as far as to China. Actually most muslim African societies were. And then we have Somalis who have a long history of it since antiquity.

Bro Come on, now.

Sub Saharan West African civilizations were not ocean traversing societies,

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Bro Come on, now.

lol. My bad breh.

 

[Supper]

its a fact Mali was traversing oceans , you're just misinformed

No they didn't. And the infamous AL-Umari quote about Mansa Musa sending a fleet of ships across the atlantic is most likely not legitimate as there is no primary source for it. The west Sudanic African empires(Ghana, Mali, Songhai etc etc) used canoes to traverse the Niger river system. They didn't possess ships capable of traversing oceans and little evidence suggest they were even interested in doing so. They were far more interested the trade across the sahara which they did extensively and was their bread and butter.

And if they had, they would've at least reached the Cape Verde Islands which is right off the coast of West Africa across from what was then Mali territory, yet it was uninhabited when the portuguese reached it.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

No they didn't. And the infamous AL-Umari quote about Mansa Musa sending a fleet of ships across the atlantic is most likely not legitimate as there is no primary source for it. The Sudanic African empire(Ghana, Mali, Songhai etc etc) used canoes to traverse the Niger river system. They didn't possess ships capable of traversing oceans and little evidence suggest they were even interested in doing so. They were far more interest the trade across the sahara which they did extensively and was their bread and butter.

And if they had, they would've at least reached the Cape Verde Islands which is right off the coast of West Africa across from what was then Mali territory, yet it was uninhabited when the portuguese reached it.

That's because the majority of the Malian transcript have not been translated and incorrect they DID in fact have ships and not just canoes. Even used today in the sahel.

Sunni Ali Ber iirc actually used warships(not the same as Europeans but NOT canoes) to lay siege to Jenne.

Regardless of the circumstances, Sonni Ali learnt his lesson well. Never again was he left at the mercy of someone else's fleet. He built up a river-based navy of over 400 boats, and used them to good effect in his next conquest - the trading city of Jenne (now Djenné. The city was placed under siege, with the fleet blockading the port. Although it took seven years for the siege to work, the city fell to Sonni Ali in 1473. The Songhai Empire now incorporated three of the greatest trading cities on the Niger: Gao, Timbuktu, and Jenne. (All three had once been part of the Mali Empire.)

How Did Sonni Ali Form a Great African Empire?

These were not canoes. And Sahelian West Africans used ships many times across the Niger river. I don't know what historian has said Mansa Musa's brother story is illegitimate, all I heard is it is unknown if he and his men made it across the Atlantic. And before you begin I am definitely not saying Africans always lived in the Americas in large numbers like some of these AAs are native Indians crowd or that the Olmecs were Black. It is extremely doubtful that Africans settled the new world in large numbers before the slave trade. However, there are SOME things about Malians/West Africans in the new world that need additional questioning.

 

[Supper]

That's because the majority of the Malian transcript have not been translated and incorrect they DID in fact have ships and not just canoes. Even used today in the sahel.

It's not from a Malian transcript, like the Timbuktu manuscripts are, though. It's from the writings of a Syrian arab in Egypt about Mansa Musa's hajj to egypt written in arabic, which have indeed been translated into english in the Corpus of Early Arabic Sources For West African History. And the quote about the atlantic fleet doesn't appear in it, yet legitimate ones about Mansa Musa giving out gold in Cario do appear. The only source websites and wiki post for the Al Umari atlantic fleet quote is by Gaudefroy-Demombynes translated to FRENCH in 1927. And apparently there many different versions of the supposed quote by the same translator. But even it hadn't been translated that statement would make any sense. If it hasn't been translated then why have a bunch of non-arabic speaking non-scholars been citing it IN ENGLISH to lend credence to the idea that Malians sailed the atlantic, or even reach the Americas? How can you cite a translation that doesn't exist?

And it seems like your just coming up your own definition of what a "ship" or "canoe" is based on your own subjective whim.

ship1
/SHip/
noun


a vessel larger than a boat for transporting people or goods by sea.

Traditional sahelian boat technology are not meant for traversing oceans or seas. They are meant for traversing RIVERS and lagoons thus are by definition not ships.

The boats in this video don't even have any sails so they were definitely propelled by paddles, which is what defines a canoe. Although, canoes can have sails as well.

ca·noe
/kəˈno͞o/
noun

1. 1.
   a narrow, keelless boat with pointed ends, propelled by a paddle or paddles.

Don't see any keel on the boat in the picture you posted either. So, yeah chances are it's(or going to be) a canoe as well.

I never said that west Sahelians only used the stereotypical small fishing canoes that you're probably thinking about. Many Sahelian canoes where large and complex capable of holding many occupants, and sometimes even used as war vessels such as when the the Mandekala drove away portuguese ocean bond slave traders in SHIPS with their CANOES like so.

Still very much a canoe.

Regardless of the circumstances, Sonni Ali learnt his lesson well. Never again was he left at the mercy of someone else's fleet. He built up a river-based navy of over 400 boats, and used them to good effect in his next conquest - the trading city of Jenne (now Djenné. The city was placed under siege, with the fleet blockading the port. Although it took seven years for the siege to work, the city fell to Sonni Ali in 1473. The Songhai Empire now incorporated three of the greatest trading cities on the Niger: Gao, Timbuktu, and Jenne. (All three had once been part of the Mali Empire.

No where in that quote does it mention anything about ships. But river going boats, which most most likely where propelled by paddle, thus making them canoes.

Sunni Ali Ber iirc actually used warships(not the same as Europeans but NOT canoes) to lay siege to Jenne.

*Warcanoes used in rivers. Not warships used in oceans or seas.

These were not canoes. And Sahelian West Africans used ships many times across the Niger river. I don't know what historian has said Mansa Musa's brother story is illegitimate, all I heard is it is unknown if he and his men made it across the Atlantic.

Ship = ocean or sea going vessel

And before you begin I am definitely not saying Africans always lived in the Americas in large numbers like some of these AAs are native Indians crowd or that the Olmecs were Black. It is extremely doubtful that Africans settled the new world in large numbers before the slave trade. However, there are SOME things about Malians/West Africans in the new world that need additional questioning.

Dude, they didn't go to the Americas AT ALL in anyway shape or form. There's nothing to question about what they did there because they weren't there.

And for the umpeenth time, if they had ANY capacity at all to traverse the oceans beyond the immediate coast they would've settled in the Cape Verde islands, which are right across the atlantic from Mali terrority, in some way. It would be impossible to miss it as it's directly on the way to America. Yet they were uninhabited when the portuguese discovered the islands. If they didn't reach a group of islands some ~400 miles away, then how in the HELL are we suppose to believe they would reach a continent over 4000 miles away. Sorry, but you're not going to be able to weasel out of this point. Cape Verde absolutely obliterates this entire argument.

 

[Kasgoinjail]

Before Mansa Musa 1 there was Abubakari II
Why go so hard to prove west Africans we’re not sea bound when there’s abundant evidence showing they were

* believe the Portuguese that aside Cape Verde was uninhabited just like the Dutch said South Africa was a vast empty waste land....

 

[Lost1]

And the quote about the atlantic fleet doesn't appear in it, yet legitimate ones about Mansa Musa giving out gold in Cario do appear.

uh...yes it does

you should look again

it's pretty hard to miss

if they had ANY capacity at all to traverse the oceans beyond the immediate coast they would've settled in the Cape Verde islands

this doesn't make sense

cape verde would've been of no importance to malians or other west africans from an economic or political viewpoint

simply no reason that malians should settle there

those islands don't lead anywhere and there is nothing in them that have any value

only reason europeans settled there was to carry out the slave trade with people on the mainland


it's true that the vast majority of west africans were not sailing in any oceans but what you're saying isn't a good argument

 

[Kasgoinjail]

Remember the Sahara wasn’t always dry...

They absolutely sailed to America from West Africa which is why Mestizo language contain Mande (mandinka)

Why would west Africa not engage in Trans-oceanic trade like the rest of Africa when it had trade routes across the entire continent and was clearly not isolated

 

[Maximus Rex]

Why would I give a damn in 2019?

 

[Supper]

uh...yes it does

you should look again

it's pretty hard to miss

Show me one scholarly/academic source that cites Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History as it's source for the atlantic fleet quote.

Like I can easily do with the quote about MM giving out gold in the Pathway to Visions(Al Umari) book within the Corpus

Kingdom of Mali » African Studies Center | Boston University
https://sheg.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/download-pdf/Mansa Musa Lesson Plan_1.pdf

The places that use atlantic fleet quote never cite the Corpus as a source. But, feel free to prove me wrong.

this doesn't make sense

cape verde would've been of no importance to malians or other west africans from an economic or political viewpoint

simply no reason that malians should settle there

those islands don't lead anywhere and there is nothing in them that have any value

only reason europeans settled there was to carry out the slave trade with people on the mainland


it's true that the vast majority of west africans were not sailing in any oceans but what you're saying isn't a good argument

They're literally directly on the path from what was then Mali territory to America by ocean. There's no way they would've missed them if they were sailing that direction or really anywhere a couple hundred miles offshore.

If they were truly sailing the atlantic the Cape Verde islands would've been the first offshore place they discovered on their expeditions. So, contact with them and the island would've been made.

They wouldn't know whether or not the islands would be of major benefit them if they didn't explore them extensively first upon discovering them, which in of itself would've been enough to leave archeological evidence of human contact like the vikings did in NewFoundland even though they never permanently settled, yet there's none for any pre-portuguese contact on the Cape Verde islands.

And as an expansionist empire that Mali(as well as Songhai) was they definitely would've claimed these completely uninhabited the islands just off the strength of expansion, not to mention set up outpost to establish naval control, use them as rest stops and refueling stations for outgoing and in coming ships, and expanding their fishing waters if they were truly sailing the atlantic ocean. And Cape Verde does have salt and limestone mineral deposits. The Malians were major salt miners.

Even the bantus in Equatorial guinea managed to reach and permanently settle the Bioko and Corisco islands. And while they never permanently settled the Elobey Islands oral history by the Banga chiefs note they still claimed the islands as their territory and used the them as naval outpost, and archeological evidence corroborates the notion that humans have traveled been traveling to the Elobey islands for thousands of years.

So, some little bantu chiefdom in Equatorial Guinea could do that to the equally, if not even more useless Elobey Islands(that still have no present inhabitants), but the expansionist juggernauts that were the Mali and Songhai empires wouldn't have at least have the resources and man power to do the same to the Cape Verde Islands while sailing the atlantic?

So, again sorry, but neither you nor anyone else is going to be able intellectually weasel your way out of the fact that no evidence of contact was made by humans on the Cape Verde Islands before the portuguese but claim that somehow the Malians were sailing over 4000 miles across the atlantic without ships capable of traversing oceans to the Americas for which Cape Verde would've been in the direct path. It makes zero since.

 

[Lost1]

Show me one scholarly/academic source that cites Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History as it's source for the atlantic fleet quote.

the quote is in the book itself

i don't need to show a source that cites the book for the quote

just means there may not be an academic source out there citing that book for the quote

but the quote itself is in the book...you need to look the actual book...there's no way to miss the quote


what you're saying about mali, songhai kind of misses the point

the fact that cape verde islands is 'directly on the path from mali territory and america ocean' assumes malians would have set sail from a point on the mainland exactly opposite cape verde islands

that's just an assumption, they could set sail from another point on the coast in their territory

and you're also still ignoring that there is nothing of any value there

the place is just land

there's no political or economic reason to leave people there. the only reason the europeans settled people there was as a base for the slave trade

also most african empires weren't densely populated so there's not much incentive to seek out more land to settle on (unless that land is known to have special resources) when the land they already have on the mainland is far from filled up

i don't understand this bantu vs non-bantu business

the bissagos islands were settled, and these aren't in a bantu area, but like the elobey islands, they are actually close enough to the mainland to justify setting up communities of fishermen out there

not the case for cape verde

you don't travel out that far to settle people on useless islands for no real reason

 

[Lost1]

The Malians were major salt miners

maybe

but i get the impression they got a lot of their salt from the desert trade

and there were probably other sources of salt at the coast of the mainland without sailing off to some random islands

there is usually sea salt at coasts

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

the quote is in the book itself

i don't need to show a source that cites the book for the quote

just means there may not be an academic source out there citing that book for the quote

but the quote itself is in the book...you need to look the actual book...there's no way to miss the quote


what you're saying about mali, songhai kind of misses the point

the fact that cape verde islands is 'directly on the path from mali territory and america ocean' assumes malians would have set sail from a point on the mainland exactly opposite cape verde islands

that's just an assumption, they could set sail from another point on the coast in their territory

and you're also still ignoring that there is nothing of any value there

the place is just land

there's no political or economic reason to leave people there. the only reason the europeans settled people there was as a base for the slave trade

also most african empires weren't densely populated so there's not much incentive to seek out more land to settle on (unless that land is known to have special resources) when the land they already have on the mainland is far from filled up

i don't understand this bantu vs non-bantu business

the bissagos islands were settled, and these aren't in a bantu area, but like the elobey islands, they are actually close enough to the mainland to justify setting up communities of fishermen out there

not the case for cape verde

you don't travel out that far to settle people on useless islands for no real reason

You have to cite sources, your method of "convince via what seems like common sense" (inaccurate) does not work. Use provable facts and readily provide evidence yourself.
"Why would a person..."
means absolutely nothing. Provide evidence. Don't say "you go find it", post it YOURSELF, because the BURDEN OF PROOF is on YOU.

 

[Kasgoinjail]

West Africans & Navigation | ancient america

“
When the Portuguese first got to the islands they found west Africans there. If the Africans could not access the Bissagos Islands, we might wonder where the inhabitants of the islands that the Portuguese met came from. Their arrival on the islands clearly long antedated the Portuguese getting there. Also an all-male population will last only as long those males live, so the continuation needed females to be present. The Wilson article (Journal of West African Languages 2003 & online) on “Vowel Harmony in Biyago” makes obvious the Biyago language of the islands had so diverged that some dialects were unintelligible to their fellow islanders and had almost emerged as a separate language. This is further good testimony for Africans there as verysettled for a considerable antiquity”

It’s strange to suggest that west Africans didn’t have masts or sails
They did
They had their own versions....

 

[Lost1]

You have to cite sources, your method of "convince via what seems like common sense" (inaccurate) does not work. Use provable facts and readily provide evidence yourself.
"Why woukd a person..."
means absolutely nothing. Provide evidence. Don't say "you go find it", post it YOURSELF, because the BURDEN OF PROOF is on YOU.

as far as the book with the quote, it seems he hasn't checked the book but is trying to say what is or isn't in the book

that's kind of a problem

he shouldn't claim a quote that anyone can find in the book if they actually check it, isn't in the book when it is,

he would have to be the one to show that the quote is not really there

but that can't be done because the quote really is in there

who's right or wrong about if the quote is in the book could be settled by taking pictures of pages of the book and posting it here

but i don't own the book and don't want to travel to the library where i checked it out years ago just for this thread, so that's not going to be me

but i've at least read it


what he's saying about how malians were really obligated to settle in cape verde for no real reason if they ever sailed the ocean even just once is just speculation, that can't be proven as some real fact

that seems to be what he believes

i believe differently is all