Shogun (FX/Hulu) - February 2024 :ohhh:

[Json]

Toranaga is not above doing what needs to be done, he's a layered character

I’m talking about how he was portrayed in the first couple episodes as the honorable man beset on all sides by scheming but they are showing in the last couple episodes that he may have it coming.

 

[Uchiha God]

I’m talking about how he was portrayed in the first couple episodes as the honorable man beset on all sides by scheming but they are showing in the last couple episodes that he may have it coming.

I’m yet to see anything alluding at him “having it coming”. His portrayal has been fairly consistent in my eyes - a layered, honorable man. He seems to understand the lay of the land - and though seemingly not actively pursuing/having bigger aspirations, he’s not above “doing what’s necessary” - and that includes using and disciplining his vassals, plotting to survive, etc.

I’d be weary of placing too much stock on what the heir’s mother says. She’s clearly being depicted as the stereotypical manipulative villain with a chip on her shoulder.

I mean, Mariko was married off to remain alive right before her father killed their tyrannical lord. It really doesn’t take much brain power to know that her father married her off so she would survive - especially with the speech he gave her about always being an obedient child etc. The fact she had to wait until Toranaga said that to her was fanbase near retarded . In one of flashbacks - when the lord was decapitating monks - Toranaga even held Mariko’s father back and told him “I know how you feel, now is not the time” so the whole “Toranaga was the one that orchestrated it“ thing didn’t really register to me. More likely they all wanted to off that Lord, Mariko’s dad decided to be the one to do it and asked Toranaga to look out for Mariko - would be in line with Toranaga being honorable since despite knowing that guy wasn’t fit to rule, he still held Mariko’s father back. That’s without even mentioning that the flashbacks started with tension between Mariko’s dad and that lord

 

[Arianne Martell]

Ochiba said she knows Toranaga's true heart


Remember what they said about the Japanese having to keep their true heart that no one knows their true intent.

 

[Uchiha God]

Toranaga’s heritage and lineage have been referenced multiple times. He’s a descendant of shoguns. It’s likely that in his “true heart” he knows he should be ruling the land - that doesn’t mean it’s something he’d actively pursue.

 

[Json]

I’m yet to see anything alluding at him “having it coming”. His portrayal has been fairly consistent in my eyes - a layered, honorable man. He seems to understand the lay of the land - and though seemingly not actively pursuing/having bigger aspirations, he’s not above “doing what’s necessary” - and that includes using and disciplining his vassals, plotting to survive, etc.

I’d be weary of placing too much stock on what the heir’s mother says. She’s clearly being depicted as the stereotypical manipulative villain with a chip on her shoulder.

I mean, Mariko was married off to remain alive right before her father killed their tyrannical lord. It really doesn’t take much brain power to know that her father married her off so she would survive - especially with the speech he gave her about always being an obedient child etc. The fact she had to wait until Toranaga said that to her was fanbase near retarded . In one of flashbacks - when the lord was decapitating monks - Toranaga even held Mariko’s father back and told him “I know how you feel, now is not the time” so the whole “Toranaga was the one that orchestrated it“ thing didn’t really register to me. More likely they all wanted to off that Lord, Mariko’s dad decided to be the one to do it and asked Toranaga to look out for Mariko - would be in line with Toranaga being honorable since despite knowing that guy wasn’t fit to rule, he still held Mariko’s father back. That’s without even mentioning that the flashbacks started with tension between Mariko’s dad and that lord

I’m actually not talking about what Ochiba said. I’m talking about Toranga’s own actions.

I’m talking about him repeatedly refusing to let the Anjin go home. The series is couching everything in terms of this political conflict but for all intents and purposes this isn’t his fight. He offered to train on the cannons and has received honorable titles, consorts, and swords but at the end of the day. He won’t let the Anjin go. He’s a prisoner.

It’s not that Mariko’s father saved her. It’s that as Toranga prepares for war, he unleashes this truth bomb about her being the fail safe to finish her father’s mission. Mariko has been struggling for years with this and he didn’t do anything until it served him. That’s not a good person.

Lastly we see him using sex to manipulate both Mariko and the Anjin in this episode. There was literally no reason for her to be there. He’s not going to spill secrets to a whore. What his end goal with separating Buntaro at this moment remains to be seen.

All that is why I don’t totally dismiss Ruri as not having some legit possible grievances. We mostly saw the flashbacks from Mariko’s POV. She herself admitted she hasn’t kept up with her childhood friend.

We have seen how this men councils manipulate each other so the plan to kill the Lord may not be what it seems.

 

[Uchiha God]

I’m actually not talking about what Ochiba said. I’m talking about Toranga’s own actions.

I’m talking about him repeatedly refusing to let the Anjin go home. The series is couching everything in terms of this political conflict but for all intents and purposes this isn’t his fight. He offered to train on the cannons and has received honorable titles, consorts, and swords but at the end of the day. He won’t let the Anjin go. He’s a prisoner.

It’s not that Mariko’s father saved her. It’s that as Toranga prepares for war, he unleashes this truth bomb about her being the fail safe to finish her father’s mission. Mariko has been struggling for years with this and he didn’t do anything until it served him. That’s not a good person.

Lastly we see him using sex to manipulate both Mariko and the Anjin in this episode. There was literally no reason for her to be there. He’s not going to spill secrets to a whore. What his end goal with separating Buntaro at this moment remains to be seen.

All that is why I don’t totally dismiss Ruri as not having some legit possible grievances. We mostly saw the flashbacks from Mariko’s POV. She herself admitted she hasn’t kept up with her childhood friend.

We have seen how this men councils manipulate each other so the plan to the Lord may not be what it seems.

All that - ultimately - comes down to him doing what’s necessary. Toranaga uses people based on their talents/purpose and that’s what gives them value to him.

I don’t think the show tried to impress upon us that he’s a “good person”. I mean, the guy let one of his vassals off himself and his baby boy just because he spoke out of turn in a meeting. He’s a man bound by codes and traditions. He’s honorable without needing to be “good”.

He sees value in the Anjin, thus refuses to let him go.

Again, the Mariko revelation was silly to me. She used the “piece of the puzzle part of bigger picture/endure/purpose” speech on Fuji herself - and seemingly was aware she holds a similar role when she did so.

He obviously recognizes the tension between Mariko and the Anjin. They kept bickering during that meeting with him. The sex was likely an attempt to sever their bond. He did tell Buntaro to divorce Mariko, he refused - I guess the next best thing was to make Mariko watch the Anjin pipe that prostitute to create distance between them. He did say he didn’t want bickering in his clan - referring to the love triangle thing Anjin, Mariko, Buntaro got going on.

I’m not saying lady Ochoba’s grudge is completely unfounded. Sometimes people get hurt in the process of doing what’s necessary. I’m just saying I’ve not seen any shift in Toranaga’s characterization

 

[Json]

All that - ultimately - comes down to him doing what’s necessary. Toranaga uses people based on their talents/purpose and that’s what gives them value to him.

I don’t think the show tried to impress upon us that he’s a “good person”. I mean, the guy let one of his vassals off himself and his baby boy just because he spoke out of turn in a meeting. He’s a man bound by codes and traditions. He’s honorable without needing to be “good”.

He sees value in the Anjin, thus refuses to let him go.

Again, the Mariko revelation was silly to me. She used the “piece of the puzzle part of bigger picture/endure/purpose” speech on Fuji herself - and seemingly was aware she holds a similar role when she did so.

He obviously recognizes the tension between Mariko and the Anjin. They kept bickering during that meeting with him. The sex was likely an attempt to sever their bond. He did tell Buntaro to divorce Mariko, he refused - I guess the next best thing was to make Mariko watch the Anjin pipe that prostitute to create distance between them. He did say he didn’t want bickering in his clan - referring to the love triangle thing Anjin, Mariko, Buntaro got going on.

I’m not saying lady Ochoba’s grudge is completely unfounded. Sometimes people get hurt in the process of doing what’s necessary. I’m just saying I’ve not seen any shift in Toranaga’s characterization

It’s not a shift in character. That’s my point. He was never going to let him go.

The writing was so good it snuck the red flags by the viewer.

Him asking to be taught to dive, listening to the barbarian instead of dismissing him. We had this evil council trying to get him.

As the political situation deteriorated what became “ necessary” has become less recognized talents and more just using people.

 

[Uchiha God]

It’s not a shift in character. That’s my point. He was never going to let him go.

I was addressing was this:

I’m talking about how he was portrayed in the first couple episodes as the honorable man beset on all sides by scheming but they are showing in the last couple episodes that he may have it coming.

I don’t think there has been a shift in his portrayal. I think that with Toranaga they have been pretty consistent character wise.

and the current situation - from what we’ve seen thus far - isn’t one he’s engineered. he’s been playing defense - and keeps emphasising to his son the reason he’s been around this long it’s because he lets his opponents make the first move. He was even offered the role of sole regent by the Taiko (who seemed sincere) and refused - one could say maybe it was a test, but considering the Taiko’s wife made the same offer and he still refused even after the Taiko’s death that seems unlikely.

Ishido’s clearly ambitious and lady Ochiba’s making use of said ambition.

 

[Json]

I was addressing was this:



I don’t think there has been a shift in his portrayal. I think that with Toranaga they have been pretty consistent character wise.

I’m not saying his character is in consistent.

The political situation in episode 1 isn’t the same one in episode 6. Holding the Anjin in episode 1 when he needed to know what was going on and learn and be caught about cannons was one thing.

Holding the Anjin in episode 6 preparing for war he has no involvement in is different.

Same action, different situation. See what I’m saying?

and the current situation - from what we’ve seen thus far - isn’t one he’s engineered. he’s been playing defense - and keeps emphasising to his son the reason he’s been around this long it’s because he lets his opponents make the first move. He was even offered the role of sole regent by the Taiko (who seemed sincere) and refused - one could say maybe it was a test, but considering the Taiko’s wife made the same offer and he still refused even after the Taiko’s death that seems unlikely.

Ishido’s clearly ambitious and lady Ochiba’s making use of said ambition.

Defensively now.

We now know he knew about the plot to kill that Lord. His hands aren’t clean.

After how we have seen how this current council works, I’m not so sure the Toranga we see now is always how he’s been.

 

[jay211]

I think Toranaga has to be the real father of the heir. I think that's why Ochiba has so much resentment for Toranaga.

 

[Ziggiy]

I'm still baffled as to why Theodore Hardy hung that dead bird up in the first place

I read thats historically accurate but basically Blackthorne did it the wrong way

Your supposed to age the birds in a cool location like a cellar or basement for several days while the meat tenderizes. Blackthorne just left the shyt out in the open

 

[Ziggiy]

I don't understand, what's Ochiba's beef with Toranaga? I'm not buying her story. Sounds like she's on some bullshyt.

Her father was the former leader of the Samurai, who was cruel to those who practiced Christianity. Ochiba blames Toranaga for putting the battery in Mariko’s father’s back to kill him. Once Ochiba’s father was killed, she was made to be a consort to the man who succeeded him AND bare his child. So she blames Toranaga for her trauma.

Also, did you notice near the end, Toranaga was reading a SECRET NOTE from someone, before he spoke to Mariko? I wonder who that was from And why did he want Mariko with the Anjin in the whorehouse? He said to see if he pillow talks? But that didn't make sense, especially since Mariko didn't follow Anjin when he left with the escort in the next room, alone.

Is Toranaga testing Mariko? And do we really think Anjin hooked up with the escort?

I believe Toranaga is testing EVERYONE and playing the long game.

Everything he says is the reverse of what he means. He’s been talking sideways since the series premiered. He says over and over he doesn’t want to be Shogun but every single move he’s made is putting him in position to be Shogun.


Toranaga knows that Blackthorne and Mariko are fukking. He probably set it up to happen when he ordered Mariko to live with him. Blackthorne living with the only woman who can speak his language, who also happens to be the most attractive female in the village? They fukkin. Then if Blackthorne falls in love with Mariko, it makes him more likely to want to stay and help.

Blackthorne and Mariko having a lover’s spat? Cool, Toranaga can use that too. Send Blackthorne to the town whore, who Umi, his treacherous town steward, is simping for. Have the “barbarian” fukk her brains out for a night to teach Umi a lesson about manipulating Toranaga’s son. Toranaga wants everyone preoccupied with their own bullshyt so he can plan in peace.

 

[thelonious21]

Her father was the former leader of the Samurai, who was cruel to those who practiced Christianity. Ochiba blames Toranaga for putting the battery in Mariko’s father’s back to kill him. Once Ochiba’s father was killed, she was made to be a consort to the man who succeeded him AND bare his child. So she blames Toranaga for her trauma.





I believe Toranaga is testing EVERYONE and playing the long game.

Everything he says is the reverse of what he means. He’s been talking sideways since the series premiered. He says over and over he doesn’t want to be Shogun but every single move he’s made is putting him in position to he Shogun.


Toranaga knows that Blackthorne and Mariko are fukking. He probably set it up to happen when he ordered Mariko to live with him. Blackthorne living with the only woman who can speak his language, who also happens to be the most attractive female in the village? They fukkin. Then if Blackthorne falls in love with Mariko, it makes him more likely to want to stay and help.

Blackthorne and Mariko having a lover’s spat? Cool, Toranaga can use that too. Send Blackthorne to the town whore, who Umi, his treacherous town steward, is simping for. Have the “barbarian” fukk her brains out for a night to teach Umi a lesson about manipulating Toranaga’s son. Toranaga wants everyone preoccupied with their own bullshyt so he can plan in peace.

 

[Methodical]

This show is dope, I freaking love it so. Make me wanna cop Rise of the Ronin game

 

[Digital Omen]

‘I thought he was doing it as a punishment to make her jealous for falling for the barbarian (no negs..lol)…. So he knew she would get jealous if she had to watch.. punishment for making her husband whip her ass after he snitched on her being so in love with the barbarian… lol

Toronaga basically told Mariko play your position and stay in a high class hoe's place. Sounded like he got dirt on her.