Russia's Invasion of Ukraine (Official Thread)

987654321

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@Rhakim
So this strike never existed in any official records. And, again, we learned about it because people who witnessed it firsthand or at least saw the high-definition footage were deeply disturbed by what happened. But they didn't come to us first. And I think that that shows sort of the dysfunction that is in the accountability process in the military.

There was nothing secret about this strike. The whole world watched it, and the days leading up to it. ISIS had more than a week to surrender.

What’s memory holed is that the world watched, cheered, and collectively agreed that no one was going to force entry on a densely populated island camp full of extremely suicidal, maniacal, murderous, kidnapping, suicide bombers.

It’s important to remember that the fighters took their isis brides and kidnapped families there. It’s just as important that some of those ISIS wives were still volunteering to be martyred. For some other wives, and their children, their presence was not a choice. For the fighters, it was a celebration until the shooting stopped and the bombing started. It’s very important to remember that they had been collecting weapons, ammunition, and explosives during their withdrawal to the island.

Look up the news reports leading up to it and some of the interviews of the ISIS brides. There was some regret/remorse in the camp but ISIS’s fighters fired at the surrounding forces non stop, even through negotiation of a surrender. And expressed intent of fighting until death. They got flattened until the fighters weren’t a danger to anyone else. I was out by that time but still had both soldiers, peers, and friends deployed in Syria and Iraq. I also paid very close attention to what was going on at the time. ISIS had no mercy for the people of Syria or Iraq, they tried to use their families as one final “fukk you” statement, and they died with absolutely no sympathy.

They tried to be queen latifah in “Set it Off” and that’s the treatment they got.
 
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Carl Tethers

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@Rhakim


There was nothing secret about this strike. The whole world watched it, and the days leading up to it. ISIS had more than a week to surrender.

What’s memory holed is that the world watched, cheered, and collectively agreed that no one was going to force entry on a densely populated island camp full of extremely suicidal, maniacal, murderous, kidnapping, suicide bombers.

It’s important to remember that the fighters took their isis brides and kidnapped families there. It’s just as important that some of those ISIS wives were still volunteering to be martyred. For some other wives, and their children, their presence was not choice. For the fighters, it was a celebration until the shooting stopped and the bombing started. It’s very important to remember that they had been collecting weapons, ammunition, and explosives during their withdrawal from the island.

Look up the news reports leading up to it and some of the interviews of the ISIS brides. There was some regret/remorse in the camp but ISIS’s fighters fired at the surrounding forces non stop, even through negotiation of a surrender. And expressed intent of fighting until death. They got flattened until the fighters weren’t a danger to anyone else. I was out by that time but still had both soldiers, peers, and friends deployed in Syria and Iraq. I also paid very close attention to what was going on at the time. ISIS had no mercy for the people of Syria or Iraq, they tried to use their families as one final “fukk you” statement, and they died with absolutely no sympathy.

They tried to be queen latifah in “Set it Off” and that’s the treatment they got.

Truth. There needs to be a separate "morality and ethics in wartime" thread because I came here to see Russia get its shyt pushed in, not argue about the nature of man
 

Orbital-Fetus

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Truth. There needs to be a separate "morality and ethics in wartime" thread because I came here to see Russia get its shyt pushed in, not argue about the nature of man

Why Can't We Have Both GIFs | Tenor


I'm with you 100% on watching Russian forces get that work but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't something else laying in wait just beneath the surface. I was too lazy and afraid to gaze upon it let alone examine it. That's when @Rhakim stepped in and picked it up with ease, handing it to me with a gentle smile. What was this gift that so frightened me before?

Orb: What is this?

Rha: Hard hitting questions.

Orb: :banderas:
 

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I don't really buy that excuse. I read the articles in the NYT like most people and it was discussed here. Trump loosened the restrictions that potentially barely worked in the first place(I did not vote for Trump in either election). I'm not a fan of drones and think they should've been banned(good luck with that).

Are you really trying to draw an equivalency in what Russia does in Syria and Ukraine with what the US has done because there is not.


It's not an "excuse", I think they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law even if the psychological distance of their screen-based kills is contributing to them happening. And it's not an "equivilency" because there's no relative worth or value of their actions being measured. I don't require that we set up a scale where we're "as bad" as the enemy. They can be 10x worse than us and we'll still learn something from recognizing how we do some of the same things wrong for the same reasons.

It's a practical attempt to understand why war crimes happen, so we can try to stop them. If we ever get stuck in the mode of "War crimes happen because Russians are orcs!" then we'll never get anywhere, because that thought process is mirrored on the other side (look at the Russian propaganda about Ukrainian military/soldiers going back to 2014 and it is is disturbingly similar to our own) and in part drives both their and our own war crimes. We decieve ourselves into thinking, "Is it really a crime if the people are so evil they deserve it?" Throw in a little guilt-by-association ("Well they're evil and thus anyone who happens to be within their borders is evil enough to deserve it too!") and pretty soon even the worst targeting of non-combantants is just some collaterol damage not worth fretting over.

And making relative value judgments of who is doing it worse only encourages a race to the bottom, because by that criteria our actions remain justifiable so long as they're marginally better than those evil guys over there. It's not dissimilar to police-violence apologists who defend their actions by positively comparing the police to the "criminals" they act against - once that becomes your measure, then you cease any serious attempt to do better and can justify almost anything.


I have zero doubt that there are people in this thread who will justify war crimes - targeting any or all of women, children, medics, non-combatants, etc. - if the "enemy" can be portrayed negatively enough. We've done it for literally every conflict we've ever engaged in. Even in cases where numerous military personnel involved call it a war crime (such as the Iraqi torture policies), even when our most initimately involved leaders call it a war crime (see Hiroshima/Nagasaki), you have Americans both civilian and military who are willing to defend it. And they almost always defend it by demonizing the other side. As long as we're defending our own war crimes by painting the enemy as bad enough to deserve it, then what power or impact will our condemnations of the war crimes of others have?

"First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" is a lasting moral edict not just because hypocrisy looks bad. It's a powerful lesson because we literally can't fix these problems unless we understand why they happen, and we won't understand why they happen until we come to terms with the instances where our side is doing them too.



But, if you're not interested in actually stopping war crimes, and just want to highlight them in order to get a W on the internet over your enemy, then by all means proceed as you are.
 
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Orbital-Fetus

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"War crimes happen because Russians are orcs!" then we'll never get anywhere, because that thought process is mirrored on the other side (look at the Russian propaganda about Ukrainian military/soldiers going back to 2014 and it is is disturbingly similar to our own) and in part drives both their and our own war crimes.
The word orcs appeared in four posts previous to me typing it in this thread and one of those times was you.
Scarecrow GIFs | Tenor
followed up with a dose of false equivalency in regards to the current conflict in Ukraine.
Gotcha GIFs | Tenor
I have zero doubt that there are people in this thread who will justify war crimes - targeting any or all of women, children, civilians, medics, already injured persons, non-combatants, etc. - if the "enemy" can be portrayed negatively enough.
Name names with confidence then.
As long as we're defending our own war crimes by painting the enemy as bad enough to deserve it, then what power or impact will our condemnations of the war crimes of others have?
Who the fukk is defending war crimes? Where are these people and posts that you are fighting against? I mean, it's kinda fun watching you shadow box but it's also strange.
"First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" is a lasting moral edict not just because hypocrisy looks bad. It's not just about sin or judgment. It's a powerful lesson because we literally can't fix these problems unless we understand why the happen, and we won't understand why they happen until we come to terms with the instances where our side is doing them too.

Psychology's trolley problem might have a problem.
 

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The word orcs appeared in four posts previous to me typing it in this thread and one of those times was you.

Orcs has appeared plenty of times, the problem is this thread is mostly Twitter/youtube/media links whose keywords don't show up in your search. :comeon:





Name names with confidence then.

Who the fukk is defending war crimes? Where are these people and posts that you are fighting against? I mean, it's kinda fun watching you shadow box but it's also strange.

Um, not at all necessary but you could start with post #20,686, dapped by 6 people including you, which goes into a detailed defense of one of the exact war crimes I just mentioned?

But again, that's not necessary, because whether you defend war crimes or not it's clear that our side commits them, and commits them for many of the same reasons that Russians commit them, and understanding that is crucial to stopping them from happening more.
 

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it's clear that our side commits them, and commits them for many of the same reasons that Russians commit them, and understanding that is crucial to stopping them from happening more.

I don't do the whole "our side/their side" thing when conversing about international engagements involving the U.S. I just refer to it as the U.S. Even though I am a U.S. citizen I see myself as a separate part of a larger whole that is observable to me. I can study it and critique it better that way.

Anyway, nobody is denying the very well documented fact that the U.S. has committed war crimes. Nobody. As a matter of fact let's put this shyt to bed right now so you can stop going on aboot it.

Does anyone here deny that the U.S. has committed war crimes?
According the the esteemed brother @Rhakim, it is crucial for you to overstsand this so it can finally stop. :ohlawd:

Crimea by 🎃
 

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Orcs has appeared plenty of times, the problem is this thread is mostly Twitter/youtube/media links whose keywords don't show up in your search. :comeon:







Um, not at all necessary but you could start with post #20,686, dapped by 6 people including you, which goes into a detailed defense of one of the exact war crimes I just mentioned?

But again, that's not necessary, because whether you defend war crimes or not it's clear that our side commits them, and commits them for many of the same reasons that Russians commit them, and understanding that is crucial to stopping them from happening more.

It was dapped because it wasn’t a war crime. You never breach ANYTHING full of suicide bombers who are showing off videos of vests/rigged munitions/plenty of ammo, from INSIDE, the thing you’re trying to talk them into leaving lmao.

I testified in an actual war crime trial from an incident in spring 2010 in Khowst. Mid trial, Another actual warcrime happened south of us (A sleeping Stryker gunner waking up and panic firing an M240B into a bus following their convoy for safety) that uncovered multiple war crimes (the fakkit ass kill team operating in Kandahar along with the SSG Bales incident). Anyone on here who was in my task force would would be able to identify me from the trial and timeline.

One of my Air assault school instructors was part of the same broken platoon (1st platoon, B company, 1st battalion, 502nd inf regiment) as Pfc. Green who, along with 2 other cowards, raped a girl and murdered her and her family in Yusufiyah. Just because he was an NCO in that platoon he could never lead again or be promoted beyond Sergeant first class. It wasn’t even his squad and he had no idea.

I know exactly what a war crime is and we prosecute them as soon leadership is made aware. The bolded incidents are real life war crimes and those involved were relentlessly prosecuted. Being too close to a crime or scandal will make you a pariah. They don’t fukk around with war crimes aside from trump pardoning that dikkhead seal, who should rot in prison. You can do decades in prison or life even over accidents.

I understand and empathize with you disliking war and your conviction. But you aren’t going to change anyones mind by calling everything a war crime. A situation may be ugly as fukk but it doesn’t make it a war crime.
 
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People generally do not understand war crimes outside of "my god, this is an atrocity"

Putting prisoners on video and making them say shyt certain shyt is a war crime lol.... however there's levels to it and all that so whatever. I just don't even like going there with folks because they get emotional then look at others like they weren't emotional about it at one point too.

I've had to write up shyt regarding proportionality more or less and some of yal know what that entails :dead: plenty of stuff regarding human dignities, etc.
It was dapped because it wasn’t a war crime. You never breach ANYTHING full of suicide bombers who are showing off videos of vests/rigged munitions/plenty of ammo, from INSIDE, the thing you’re trying to talk them into leaving lmao.

I testified in an actual war crime trial from an incident in spring 2010 in Khowst. Mid trial, Another actual warcrime happened south of us (A sleeping Stryker gunner waking up and panic firing an M240B into a bus following their convoy for safety) that uncovered multiple war crimes (the fakkit ass kill team operating in Kandahar along with the SSG Bales incident). Anyone on here who was in my task force would would be able to identify me from the trial and timeline.

One of my Air assault school instructors was part of the same broken platoon (1st platoon, B company, 1st battalion, 502nd inf regiment) as Pfc. Green who, along with 2 other cowards, raped a girl and murdered her and her family in Yusufiyah. Just because he was an NCO in that platoon he could never lead again or be promoted beyond Sergeant first class. It wasn’t even his squad and he had no idea.

I know exactly what a war crime is and we prosecute them as soon leadership is made aware. The bolded incidents are real life war crimes and those involved were relentlessly prosecuted. Being too close to a crime or scandal will make you a pariah. They don’t fukk around with war crimes aside from trump pardoning that dikkhead seal, who should rot in prison. You can do decades in prison or life even over accidents.

I understand and empathize with you disliking war and your conviction. But you aren’t going to change anyones mind by calling everything a war crime. A situation may be ugly as fukk but it doesn’t make it a war crime.
 

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I understand and empathize with you disliking war and your conviction. But you aren’t going to change anyones mind by calling everything a war crime. A situation may be ugly as fukk but it doesn’t make it a war crime.


Beautiful for you to reduce the bombing of 60+ unarmed women and children to "calling everything a war crime". Let's go in order:


So this is footage that is color, high definition, very clear, and the drone is flying over and watching this camp. And nothing in particular is going on, according to the people who are watching this video. There are some fighters carrying assault weapons, sort of winding their way through the camp, but they don't appear to be actively engaged in any fighting. And there's this large group of people that have sought refuge in this small depression down by the river, where they're protected by essentially a sand bank. And who is there is the types of people you might expect to seek shelter in a situation like this. It's women. It's children. It is the wounded. And what they're doing is essentially lying in rows, wrapped in blankets. There's no particular action.
Eugene Tate: “Yes, I see people with weapons. Not a lot. I see, like, two people with weapons.” (emphasis added)
The high-definition drone recorded a very different scene from what was described by Central Command this past week, three people who viewed the footage said. In it, two or three men — not 16 — wander through the frame near the crowd. They have rifles but do not appear to be maneuvering, engaging coalition forces or acting in a way that would seem to justify a self-defense strike with 2,000-pound bombs. A chat log used by analysts who were watching the footage noted the presence of women, children and a man with a gun, but did not mention any active combat, two people who viewed the log said.
At the US military's busy Combined Air Operations Center at Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar, uniformed personnel watching the live drone footage looked on in stunned disbelief, according to one officer who was there.

"Who dropped that?" a confused analyst typed on a secure chat system being used by those monitoring the drone, two people who reviewed the chat log recalled. Another responded, "We just dropped on 50 women and children."


Note - there is NO doubt that the drone footage in question is the absolute best picture of the bombing targets that anyone has ever had. So the people who had the actual clearest picture of the bombing targets thought they were a bunch of unarmed women and children, both in real time and in observing the footage later. Not just 1 or 2 people, but at least half-a-dozen military personel who were directly involved have characterized the footage in that manner.

Now, there was another drone there, one with standard-resolution capabilities, and it was being used by those who actually called in the strike. But that footage has never been released and was never turned over even to the official investigators of the incident. In the DOD report where they absolved themselves of a war crime, they mentioned the low resolution of the drone and stated that no civilians were observed. And yet the footage remains a secret.


Let's keep going:

In the minutes after the strike, an alarmed Air Force intelligence officer in the operations center called over an Air Force lawyer in charge of determining the legality of strikes. The lawyer ordered the F-15E squadron and the drone crew to preserve all video and other evidence, according to documents obtained by The Times. He went upstairs and reported the strike to his chain of command, saying it was a possible violation of the law of armed conflict — a war crime.”

So from right when it happened, people with intimate knowledge of the legality of war, and who had a large vested interest in the events in question, who were watching the absolute best footage available, said, "Well fukk, that looked like a war crime."

And note - he immediately ordered the preservation of all video and other evidence. And yet the video from the drone that was used by the team calling in the strike is still missing.



The only assessment done immediately after the strike was performed by the same ground unit that ordered the strike. It determined that the bombing was lawful because it killed only a small number of civilians while targeting Islamic State fighters in an attempt to protect coalition forces. Therefore, no formal war crime notification, criminal investigation or disciplinary action was warranted.

But the Air Force lawyer, Lt. Col. Dean Korsak, believed he had witnessed possible war crimes and repeatedly pressed his leadership and Air Force criminal investigators to act. When they did not, he alerted the Defense Department’s independent inspector general. Two years after the strike, seeing no evidence that the watchdog agency was taking action, Korsak emailed the Senate Armed Services Committee.


To be clear, the ground unit claimed that the strike had killed 4 civilians (and injured 8), 16 combatants, and 60 people for whom it was "Unable to conclusively characterize their status". However, the claim of "16 combatants" has never been supported or verified in any way, and "unknown status" is not a legitimate category. ODNI rules state that if someone cannot be determined to be a combatant, then they must be considered a civilian. But DOD rules state that they can only be determined a civilian if the preponderance of evidence points to that, otherwise they are deemed a combatant. Either way, just leaving 60 people out of the count was against policy - whether or not it was "conclusive", did the preponderance of evidence point to them being civilians or not? Because everyone who evaluates the main tape appears to think they look like unarmed civilians.

Now so far as international law goes (as opposed to DOD policy), it states that persons must be PRESUMED civilians until demonstrated otherwise. Thus, under international law, those were civilians no matter how much the DOD wants to weasel out of not labeling them.



Civilian observers who came to the area of the strike the next day found piles of dead women and children. The human rights organization Raqqa Is Being Slaughtered Silently posted photos of the bodies, calling it a “terrible massacre.”

Satellite images from four days later show the sheltered bank and area around it, which were in the control of the coalition, appeared to have been bulldozed.

David Eubank, a former U.S. Army Special Forces soldier who now runs the humanitarian organization Free Burma Rangers, walked through the area about a week later. “The place had been pulverized by airstrikes,” he said in an interview. “There was a lot of freshly bulldozed earth and the stink of bodies underneath, a lot of bodies.”

Remember, the Air Force lawyer immediately notified the task force that all evidence had to be preserved. That task force was part of the force that managed to overrun the camp that very same day, and had full unobstructed access to the site the next day. They could have evaluated those sixty "undetermined" bodies to see if there was clearer evidence whether they were combatants. Yet instead they just bulldozed the bodies over.



Now, you claim the event wasn't memory-holed. However:

But the command in Baghdad failed to review and close the inquiry, and Central Command did not follow up and remind the Baghdad command to do so, Capt. Bill Urban, the Central Command spokesman, said ….

As a result, senior military officials in Iraq and Florida never reviewed the strike, and the investigation technically remained open until the Times investigation.

“Should we have followed up? Yes,” Captain Urban said in a telephone interview, blaming “an administrative oversight.”


So we had a credible report of mass civilian casualties, one serious enough that people watching the feed recommended a war crimes investigation immediately, yet neither Baghdad command nor Central Command had ever reviewed the investigation until the New York Times reported on it nearly 3 years later. Also.....



DOD failed to report the March 18, 2019 strike in its annual civilian casualty reports to Congress

There is no dispute that civilians were killed in the strike. The original task force report claims 4 civilians killed, 8 civilians injured, and 60 women/children of undetermined status killed. Yet NONE of those numbers make it into the civilian casualty report, just like numerous other incidents with clear civilian casualties failed to ever appear in the official numbers afterwards. Like I said, memory-holed.




But the Air Force lawyer, Lt. Col. Dean W. Korsak, believed he had witnessed possible war crimes and repeatedly pressed his leadership and Air Force criminal investigators to act. When they did not, he alerted the Defense Department’s independent inspector general. Two years after the strike, seeing no evidence that the watchdog agency was taking action, Colonel Korsak emailed the Senate Armed Services Committee, telling its staff that he had top secret material to discuss and adding, “I’m putting myself at great risk of military retaliation for sending this.”

“Senior ranking U.S. military officials intentionally and systematically circumvented the deliberate strike process,” he wrote in the email, which was obtained by The Times. Much of the material was classified and would need to be discussed through secure communications, he said. He wrote that a unit had intentionally entered false strike log entries, “clearly seeking to cover up the incidents.” Calling the classified death toll “shockingly high,” he said the military did not follow its own requirements to report and investigate the strike.
Concerned that details of the airstrike would be buried as well, Colonel Korsak alerted the Air Force’s version of the F.B.I., the Office of Special Investigations. In an email Colonel Korsak shared with the Senate Armed Services Committee, a major responded that agents probably would not look into it, saying the office typically investigated civilian casualty reports only when there was “potential for high media attention, concern with outcry from local community/government, concern sensitive images may get out.”

The Air Force Office of Special Investigations declined to comment.

Colonel Korsak again pressed his chain of command to act, informing his command’s chief legal officer in a memo in May 2019 that regulations required an investigation. He later told the Senate committee’s staff that his superiors did not open an investigation.

“The topic and incidents were dead on arrival,” he wrote. “My supervisor refused to discuss the matter with me.”


Again, the guy who was right there thought it was a potential war crime that needed much more serious investigation. And he's not the only one. The Inspector General's office that he had alerted tried to investigate, and ran into the same problems he had with officials straight up blocking it:


“Leadership just seemed so set on burying this. No one wanted anything to do with it,” said Gene Tate, an evaluator who worked on the case for the inspector general’s office and agreed to discuss the aspects that were not classified. “It makes you lose faith in the system when people are trying to do what’s right but no one in positions of leadership wants to hear it.”

Mr. Tate, a former Navy officer who had worked for years as a civilian analyst with the Defense Intelligence Agency and the National Counterterrorism Center before moving to the inspector general’s office, said he criticized the lack of action and was eventually forced out of his job.
But like the Air Force lawyer’s earlier effort, Mr. Tate’s team soon hit roadblocks. Central Command was slow to turn over evidence, he said. Mr. Tate obtained video from several drones flying over Baghuz that day, but could not locate the footage from the task force drone that called in the strike.

The inspector general’s office received a second complaint on the hotline about the strike, a spokeswoman said, but Mr. Tate said his team was never told.

Mr. Tate studied the task force’s casualty report, but it didn’t match what he saw on video. The civilian deaths stated in the report were “an impossibly small number,” he said.

The final section of the casualty report was reserved for the legal opinion. In one version of the report that Mr. Tate was sent by the staff at Operation Inherent Resolve, the Baghdad-based military command overseeing operations in Iraq and Syria, a task force lawyer and an operations officer wrote that a violation of the law of armed conflict may have taken place. In another copy that came from Central Command, he said, that opinion had been removed.

Mr. Tate could find no evidence that the Joint Chiefs, the defense secretary or criminal investigators had been alerted, as required.

Within days of interviewing Colonel Korsak, Mr. Tate’s team took their findings to supervisors and told them the office was required to alert those officials and criminal investigation agencies. Mr. Tate said his supervisors took no action. The team pressed leaders numerous times over the next several months, and in January 2020, Mr. Tate’s team leader drafted a memo that would formally alert authorities. It only needed to be signed by the deputy inspector general overseeing the team. Mr. Tate said the supervisor did not sign it.


Again, memory-holed. You have yet another person who was directly involved with the investigation saying that leadership tried to bury it.
 
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