Russia's Invasion of Ukraine (Official Thread)
- Thread starter newarkhiphop
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I am speaking very narrowly to the justifications that Talon Anvil were allowed to use to call in strikes in that specific war. I've read the entire DOD report on the engagement as well as numerous 3rd-party reports of it as well as broader reports on Talon Anvil in general and NONE of them give the justification he did. His argument would have required pre-approval for the strikes, which they did not have.
It seems like 90% of the work being done here is built around the suggestion that Russia has some sort of systematic policy of targeting playgrounds. The only evidence I've seen behind that claim was damage at one playground, which as easily could have been from a shot-down missile or off-target missile (since over half the missiles they shot got shot down or were off target) as opposed to Moscow choosing to waste an entire multi-million dollar cruise missile on an empty playground, an action which on its face would seem to have FAR more propaganda value for Kiev than for Moscow (which, of course, is why Ukrainian officials immediately made a big deal of it and broadcast it around....while the suggestion is that Russian officials are happy about it being broadcast and it helps them somehow?). To jump from "there was damage at a playground" to "Russia is purposely choosing to target playgrounds as some greater war objective" is a stretch to the point verging on propaganda.
Now, the fact that at least part of a Russian missile hit a playground is GOOD evidence for how sick it is to shoot cruise missiles into cities. But that is much more in line with my initial point that these targeting teams don't care enough about collaterol damage.
If the argument is instead that it's a horrible thing to attack civilian infrastructure a long ways away from the battlefield, then we wouldn't have seen so much gloating over the Crimean bridge attack, or days upon days of US media glorifing of the "shock and awe" destruction of Iraqi civilian power distribution infrastructure (among many other targets) before our troops were even on the ground.
Furthermore in asymmetrical warfare where the primary belligerents actively used civilians and civilian property as barriers against a better armed foe? Yes, its going to be ugly. You can spell out the harm against individuals here over and over again - but I'd like to emphasize that you're not speaking to an audience that's wholly removed from that kind of thing. Many of us have provided direct aid to the same folks in these situations you're trying to say we don't care about. The reality is, against an enemy willing to kill the same people they're using as a meat shield, you quickly reach a disgusting ground where killing some to save many becomes a reality of the decision making in far too many engagements. And in that sense, encountering people who are vocally towards an 'end the fight decisively and quickly' shouldn't be a surprise either.
I'm not for shutting down discussion. I'm just saying that you're not dumb, so you can realize that what you're saying with some of these guys isn't clicking - at the same time, there's reasons why many feel the way they do and its because they're stupid either.
and with that im doneespecially as I agree with both of yal and wish you'd see that you're not saying vastly points like you think you are
I respect that, and I agree with more of what you're saying than is coming out in this particular discussion, while also disagreeing with a couple particular points there which to address would drag it even further afield.
The main regret I have is that there is so much emotional baggage (as obvious over the last few pages) that keeps any single point from just being a point, and someone can't criticize any specific team with a particular modus operandi without having to take on the entire US military and all its defenders.
I think the desire of the US military to follow ethical rules of combat in 2022 is stronger than the desire of the Russian military to follow ethical rules of combat in 2022. I think that generalization is true from the commander in chief down through the generals all the way to the boots on the ground, though I don't believe it is true for every individual and I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions of moral Russian soldiers and dastardly Americans. But my general view that the US tries to be more ethical is engagement than Russia does not preclude that any particular team within the US military could be fukking up for similar reasons as a team in Russia is fukking up.
I'm calling you out. You are a troll.
You know damn well that nobody is targeting playgrounds. They are hit because the bombings are indiscriminate attacks using dumb artillery and missiles. Russia does not have the stocks of smart bombs to avoid this otherwise they would be using them. You know damn well that when Russia has a target in mind that they use guided weapons. All of those Iranian drones are going after the power grid as their primary targets because they are guided.
You sir, are a fukking clown.
The exact comment I was responding to said "choose a playground as a target." Multiple other posters have claimed previously that the Russians targeted a playground. I wasn't supposed to take those claims at face value?
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My argument would not have required that, and this is why we argue on here. I joke with you a lot, but I do respect that you try to keep your arguments based on paper. I prefer to hear arguments of experience. There’s plenty of things you post that I agree on but not this.
The military may seem rigid but there is a lot of room to, in either direction, when it comes to asking for approval and asking for forgiveness. This applies to both those on the ground adjusting fires/air, and those in the air.
You argue with such limited views on what you’re talking about. Of course you’re going to bump heads with people who do. You have no real reference other than reports that have been stripped, sterilized, and full of the most exotic “cover my ass” statements the world has ever seen.
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The exact comment I was responding to said "choose a playground as a target." Multiple other posters have claimed previously that the Russians targeted a playground. I wasn't supposed to take those claims at face value?
Why repeat dumb shyt then?
again, going back to assumed risk - yes its a valuable missile system. you'd like to ensure it was used on an appropriate military target.
however this is still the same military that willingly put its tanks into an urban bottleneck well within range of concerted enemy fires, that had control of the seas yet left a vessel vulnerable to antiship fire from a shore that they should've had full control over, that tells its air force to strafe at low altitude despite an incomplete anti-air capabilities picture, that tells its infantry that pillaging is encouraged as it eases their supply concerns, etc.
some of it is because they suck. the other part is they're working from a different book altogether.
that decision making works on an entirely difference premise. you are expected to achieve greater, vague objectives with less oversight or guidelines and are granted more operational freedoms based on perceived successes. so when russia brings in commanders from syria, georgia, etc who are known to populaces particularly due to their willingness or purposeful attacks against civilians or torture of combatants. its an archaic way of fighting - to quickly degrade a people's will to fight by pushing the warfare directly into their homes and lives. its still actively rewarded in russia as these are the guys getting their shot now.
it only serves to further clarify what their baseline is. which is essentially on brand for the russian military
attack on a holiday too for maximum effect 22 reported killed in Independence Day attack in Ukraine
reckless or deliberate - its a theme far from what's normalized in laws of land warfare
however this is still the same military that willingly put its tanks into an urban bottleneck well within range of concerted enemy fires, that had control of the seas yet left a vessel vulnerable to antiship fire from a shore that they should've had full control over, that tells its air force to strafe at low altitude despite an incomplete anti-air capabilities picture, that tells its infantry that pillaging is encouraged as it eases their supply concerns, etc.
some of it is because they suck. the other part is they're working from a different book altogether.
that decision making works on an entirely difference premise. you are expected to achieve greater, vague objectives with less oversight or guidelines and are granted more operational freedoms based on perceived successes. so when russia brings in commanders from syria, georgia, etc who are known to populaces particularly due to their willingness or purposeful attacks against civilians or torture of combatants. its an archaic way of fighting - to quickly degrade a people's will to fight by pushing the warfare directly into their homes and lives. its still actively rewarded in russia as these are the guys getting their shot now.
it only serves to further clarify what their baseline is. which is essentially on brand for the russian military
yeah. i'd also cite the multiple attacks on populated areas during negotiated ceasefires that were supposed to be supported for civilian/wounded evacuation. the bs in mariupol for example Mariupol evacuation postponed as Russia accused of breaking ceasefire
The exact comment I was responding to said "choose a playground as a target." Multiple other posters have claimed previously that the Russians targeted a playground. I wasn't supposed to take those claims at face value?
attack on a holiday too for maximum effect 22 reported killed in Independence Day attack in Ukraine
reckless or deliberate - its a theme far from what's normalized in laws of land warfare
Marlow Stanfield
Superstar
Marlow Stanfield
Superstar
Just in case people need to know what is being fought for. These folks have been living in hell for months. To see the boys 'nem show up must be a crazy feeling after that.
