reasons that capitalism is better than socialism...

Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
5,507
Reputation
-3,335
Daps
7,595
Reppin
NULL
Again you are referencing corporatism, not capitalism. Corporatism necessarily entails a state, and cannot exist in an "unfettered" environment.
In unfettered capitalism corporations don't have any special economic rights. They get no special consideration, there's no tax code to manipulate, etc. they get no special advantages. Of course, inevitably, there will be some really big economic players in any economy. But free markets lower barriers to entry, making it easier to compete as a little guy.

All arguments I have seen against this basic fact stem from the false assumptions that either A) what we have today is capitalism or B) capitalism, and corporatism are one in the same.

capitalism isn't perfect, in fact its deeply flawed... its just vastly superior to every other viable option.The crime being "justified" stuff makes no sense at all :yeshrug:

I am going to do an in-depth research on Capitalism to get a better understanding of the system...

I will start with Wikipedia, but do you know of any other online resources I can use to get a good understanding of capitalism...?
 

DEAD7

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
50,818
Reputation
4,371
Daps
88,871
Reppin
Fresno, CA.
I am going to do an in-depth research on Capitalism to get a better understanding of the system...

I will start with Wikipedia, but do you know of any other online resources I can use to get a good understanding of capitalism...?
Wiki is fine. Its really the only unbiased source out there(outside of textbooks), which is sad...:wow:

That said, columns by Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, and Walter Williams are all great sources of information, and quick reads. There are many youtube videos outlining and debating the finer points as well.
 

DEAD7

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
50,818
Reputation
4,371
Daps
88,871
Reppin
Fresno, CA.
No, but I would stop using force to prevent it, which is how things work now, and redirect the use of "force" (State power, necessary for any functioning civilization) to prevent its continued usurpation. "Free" markets have to be engineered. Why do you think Hayek supported a brutal dictator like Pinochet? Why do you think self-professed free marketers throughout history have supported interventions to make the market more "free?"
I agree state power should not be used to prevent or force it. :ehh: and in the future ill specify authoritarian govt. in order to prevent the "he wants no govt." hyperbole stirring beneath your response.


free markets are not engineered, and he supported Pinochet in order to undo regulation, free the market, and promote individual freedom. Something I actually disagree with, because I dont think the end justified the means.


Like Friedman, Hayek glimpsed in Pinochet the avatar of true freedom, who would rule as a dictator only for a "transitional period, " only as long as needed to reverse decades of state regulation. "My personal preference, " he told a Chilean interviewer, "leans toward a liberal dictatorship rather than toward a democratic government devoid of liberalism." In a letter to the London Times he defended the junta, reporting that he had "not been able to find a single person even in much maligned Chile who did not agree that personal freedom was much greater under Pinochet than it had been under Allende." Of course, the thousands executed and tens of thousands tortured by Pinochet’s regime weren’t talking.



and those that support intervention are not free marketers, they are corporatist, who under corporatism are enjoying record profits.


 

ghostwriterx

Superstar
Supporter
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
6,571
Reputation
730
Daps
13,822
All arguments I have seen against this basic fact stem from the false assumptions that either A) what we have today is capitalism or B) capitalism, and corporatism are one in the same.
If the above is true...


How can you be so certain of this?
capitalism isn't perfect, in fact its deeply flawed... its just vastly superior to every other viable option.
 

Audible101

Rookie
Joined
Mar 8, 2013
Messages
234
Reputation
20
Daps
109
Reppin
Göteborg, Sverige
How true are these statements? :lupe:

1) Socialism benefits the few at the expense of the many:
Socialism is superior to capitalism in one primary way: It offers more security. It's almost like an extremely expensive insurance policy that dramatically cuts into your quality of life, but insures that if worse comes to worse, you won't drop below a very minimal lifestyle. For the vast majority of people, this would be a terrible deal. On the other hand, if you're lazy, completely incompetent or alternately, just have a streak of very bad luck, the meager benefits provided by socialism may be very appealing. So a socialist society forces the many to suffer in order to make it easier for the few. It's just as Winston Churchill once noted, "The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

2) Capitalism encourages entrepreneurship while socialism discourages it: A government in a capitalist economy can quite easily give everyone equality of opportunity with a few basic laws and regulations, but socialism strives to create equality of results. This should frighten people who value their freedom because ultimately, as F.A. Hayek has noted, "A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." You can see this happening in America as our efforts to reduce "inequality" have led to an ever expanding government and a vast regulatory tangle that is almost unexplainable despite the fact that it is certainly enforceable. Capitalism encourages people to start a business and build a better life for themselves while socialism lays in wait with IRS agents, nooses made of red tape and meddling bureaucrats looking for businesses to control and loot.

3) Capitalism leads to innovation: Coming up with new products is often time consuming, expensive and hit or miss. Nine ideas may fail before that tenth one takes off. The less the creative people behind these ideas are allowed to benefit, the less time, money and effort they'll put into developing new concepts and inventions. Put another way, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward has to be to convince people to take it. Capitalism offers big rewards for productive people while socialism offers makers only a parade of bureaucratic leeches who want to take advantage of their "good fortune."

4) Capitalism produces more economic growth: Capitalism produces considerably more economic growth than socialism and as John Kennedy said, "A rising tide lifts all boats." A fast growing economy produces more jobs, more wealth and helps everyone. Many people assume that capitalism isn't working if there are still poor people, but that misses the point. In many parts of the world, poverty means living in a hut with a dirt floor while in America, most poor Americans have TVs, refrigerators and cell phones. The rich may take home a larger share of the pie in capitalism, but the poor also benefit tremendously from living in a growing, thriving economy.

5) Socialism is too slow to adapt: Capitalism is extremely good at allocating capital to where it's most valued. It has to be. Either you give people what they are willing to pay for or someone else will. On the other hand, socialism is slow and stupid for a variety of reasons. Because the government is spending someone else's money, it doesn’t get particularly concerned about losing money. Political concerns about appearances often trump the effectiveness of a program. Moreover, even if politicians and bureaucrats are intelligent and competent, which are big "ifs," they're simply not going to have the specific knowledge needed to make decisions that may impact thousands of different industries. This is why capitalism may have its share of troubles, but when there are really colossal economic screw-ups, you'll always find the government neck deep in the whole mess.

6) Socialism is inherently wasteful: Milton Friedman once said, "Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own." This is very true and it means that the more capital that is taken out of the economy and distributed, the more of it that will be wasted. The market does a considerably better job of allocating resources than the government because there are harsh penalties for failure. A company that makes products no one wants will go out of business. A poorly performing government program that wastes a hundred times more money will probably receive a bigger budget the next year.

7) Capitalism works in concert with human nature while socialism works against it: Ayn Rand said it well, "America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance—and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way," but Adam Smith said it better, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” A man will work much harder to take care of himself, his family and his friends than he will to make money for the state, which will then waste most of it before redistributing it to people who aren't working as hard as the man who earned it in the first place.

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. No
7. No

Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

2 months paid paternity leave for mother and father. (not matter if you minimum wage or not)
Free education (university included) Also you are paid to study.
Free Healthcare.
1 month guaranteed paid vacation no matter where you work.

Did i forget to mention that if you happen fall on bad times, get mentally ill, can't find a job, the government is actually there to SUPPORT you . None of this section 8 foodstamp marginalizing like they do to you in the States.

I can safely say that the quality of life here in Sweden is much much higher than in the US. And at the end of the day that is all that matters.
 

Blackking

Banned
Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Messages
21,566
Reputation
2,491
Daps
26,218
Capitalism produces and is producing more economic inequality (in terms of how far below the richest the poorest are) than any system previously known to human beings..
Is it really capitalism that causes this?
 

The Real

Anti-Ignorance
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
6,353
Reputation
725
Daps
10,724
Reppin
NYC
Is it really capitalism that causes this?

I would argue that it does, yes, if we define capitalism in the "free market" sense, even if we are only dealing with ideally free markets. An economy can still be Pareto efficient with extreme inequality, and that's the only kind of efficiency free marketers are concerned with. Also add that the entire history of capitalism involves what DEAD7 refers to as "corporatism," though he says it's the government's fault. There has never been a capitalist society that didn't develop monopolies that then tried to influence the government to help them enforce their dominance. Also, finally, just empirically, if Rockefeller was the wealthiest person in history, and the poorest people of his age were just as poor as medieval peasants, and this happened both in the roaring 20s, when things were good, and then during the great depression, when things were horrible, I don't see how there could be another cause.

To be fair though, I am not conflating capitalism with any and all markets in general, so I'm not saying that all the benefits or downsides of markets belong to capitalism, or vice versa.
 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,509
Reputation
545
Daps
22,541
Reppin
Arrakis
if the economy keeps trying to lower labor costs as away of increasing returns for investors and keeps lowering taxes on investment, it seems like destiny...

which is why corporate america is pushing for increased immigration, it provides cheap labor, lower wages and more profits

which points out that you (not you personally) cant be against inequality and for increased immigration, thats a contradiction
 

NZA

LOL
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
21,582
Reputation
4,064
Daps
55,339
Reppin
These Internet Streetz
which is why corporate america is pushing for increased immigration, it provides cheap labor, lower wages and more profits

which points out that you (not you personally) cant be against inequality and for increased immigration, thats a contradiction
is it really increased immigration or legalization of illegal labor that is already present?
 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,509
Reputation
545
Daps
22,541
Reppin
Arrakis
is it really increased immigration or legalization of illegal labor that is already present?

its massive immigration that causes it, legal or illegal, the key is to find the right balance because you still need immgration
 

DEAD7

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
50,818
Reputation
4,371
Daps
88,871
Reppin
Fresno, CA.
If the above is true...


How can you be so certain of this?
Several ways the easiest, is to look at history.

You compare economies resembling capitalism, to those resembling socialism(the best you can hope for since neither have been truly implemented) and you look at the real world results. You should take a unbias look at the history these economies yourself and tell me which has the better track record in your opinion. :mjpls:



Is it really capitalism that causes this?

Absolutely not.
Reduced competition, a hellish tax code, over regulation, inflation, costly labor, subsidies, and the federal reserve are the biggest players in income inequality. None of which are products of capitalism. I'd also add public schools to the list cause it plays a major role as well.



 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,509
Reputation
545
Daps
22,541
Reppin
Arrakis
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. No
7. No

Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

2 months paid paternity leave for mother and father. (not matter if you minimum wage or not)
Free education (university included) Also you are paid to study.
Free Healthcare.
1 month guaranteed paid vacation no matter where you work.

Did i forget to mention that if you happen fall on bad times, get mentally ill, can't find a job, the government is actually there to SUPPORT you . None of this section 8 foodstamp marginalizing like they do to you in the States.

I can safely say that the quality of life here in Sweden is much much higher than in the US. And at the end of the day that is all that matters.

Sweden has socialist programs but it's economy along with the rest of western Europe is fundamentally capitalist, on top of that the reason why they are able to spend more on social programs is becuase they live under the us military umbrella and the existence of Western Europe as a relatively free and peaceful area is almost entirely due to the United States/NATO/military industrial complex, so if you are going to give props to European countries give credit where it's due, it's due to capitalism and us defense spending

Real socialist economies are countries like Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea, along with the now dead communist china and ussr

Strict Capitalism doesn't actually say anything about social spending or how government should spend tax revenue, if you want to increase social spending then you should be a capitalist, becuase only capitalism provides the money to have a sustainable social system

Every country that has tried to create a social system based on a socialist economy collapsed or was forced to convert to capitalism by the end of the 20th century, do your self a favor and start living in the 21st century
 
Top