Devil Plisken…CMS
Veteran
There is NOTHING on BP as lyrically dexterous & sharp as Streets, WIF or Friend Or Foe
Questlove defends Vol 1, Jay-Z responds
- Thread starter Optimus Prime
- Start date
There is NOTHING on BP as lyrically dexterous & sharp as Streets, WIF or Friend Or Foe
Tommy Gibbs
Superstar
An album consists of lyrics AND beats. By those standards, Canibus' debut album is better than Cuban Linx. right? Because there is no way Rawkwon or Ghost in 95 were better lyricists than Canibus in 98
FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
shyt to go further with that, are we now saying Immobilarity is better than Cuban Linx cuz Rae was a better MC on there?
The overrating of Vol. 1 and the Juelzing made for it is forever hilarious
too many cats want to do the revisionist thing with Jay Z. And you’re right — he didn’t become a thing until Hard Knock Life.
dude was very mid tier in the beginning and there was simply was more superior music in the entire 90s. Nothing Jay Z put out in the 90s was touching the run Busta had during the same time. And honestly, even LL had a better early to mid 90s run.
No one back then was saying Jay had next after Biggie. Literally no one. The industry keep moving after BIG and if anything, a lane opened up for Jay to tighten up his musical direction (which took a couple of years).
I would actually say it is lyrics AND beats AND song concept/structure (people like Canibus really lacked in this last category)
I thought Vol. 1 had pretty good production.
Million and One/Rhyme No More, Streets is Watching, Friend or Foe 98, Where I'm From, Rap Game/Crack Game were all raw as hell. Who You Wit II was a banger. The beats for You Must Love Me, Lucky Me, Imaginary Player, Face Off, Real Niccaz were very solid and fits the songs well.
People hate on Sunshine, I Know What Girls Like and City is Mine. Personally, I loved everything about Sunshine (beats/lyrics/chorus). I used to find I Know What Girls Like annoying, and I still don't love the chorus, but the beat is solid and Jay flows on it well. City is Mine is an okay song. Not great, kind of weak chorus, but I appreciated the concept and sentiment.
FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
Eh, I've seen anecdotal evidence of NY cats hyping up Jay-Z as the hidden gem that had next after Biggie died and then having egg on their face when the Sunshine video came out and everyone else was like "So this is your new Biggie huh
"RD wasn't a commercial smash but it had the streets - if it didn't resonate Jay wouldn't have been able to parlay that album into a Def Jam partnership.
It's weird yall hold Reasonable Doubt to this weird "Nobody was checking for it" standard when it went Gold in a few months and had the same traction as other celebrated NY albums like The Infamous. It seems to be an overcorrection of its retroactive classic status.
Eh, I've seen anecdotal evidence of NY cats hyping up Jay-Z as the hidden gem that had next after Biggie died and then having egg on their face when the Sunshine video came out and everyone else was like "So this is your new Biggie huh
It's weird yall hold Reasonable Doubt to this weird "Nobody was checking for it" standard when it went Gold in a few months and had the same traction as other celebrated NY albums like The Infamous. It seems to be an overcorrection of its retroactive classic status.
Jay did not blow up until Vol. 2, but in 96-97 he still had enough commercial success to put him on a tier above underground rappers.
Basically, Jay had the combination of skills (and respect from hip-hop purists) and enough commercial appeal to be talked about as the best all around emcee. Being in the conversation for that title has always been about having that kind of mix. It is analogous to guys like Rakim and Kane who weren't selling millions of records, but they were still going gold and obviously were more skilled and more respected by hip-hop heads than contemporaries like Hammer.
XXL declared Jay-Z the best emcee alive in their first issue (that came out in summer 1997). So his name held weight even before Vol. 2.
FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
Right. It's an argument that I literally only see applied to Reasonable Doubt. Like if RD was supposedly irrelevant because it wasn't a platinum success every East Coast rapper in the conversation that wasn't Bad Boy, Wu, or LL (and Nas by 96) didn't matter either
. Where's this energy for Redman, or Mobb Deep, or Nas before 96? Like, we all know how some albums don't resonate with billboard but resonate with the streets be it locally or all over. It seems to me that people who are salty about the level of fame Jay-Z went on to achieve just want to revel and fixate on the short window where he wasn't a huge star and ovrexaggerate it as if it somehow proves something about him.
Eh, I've seen anecdotal evidence of NY cats hyping up Jay-Z as the hidden gem that had next after Biggie died and then having egg on their face when the Sunshine video came out and everyone else was like "So this is your new Biggie huh
RD wasn't a commercial smash but it had the streets - if it didn't resonate Jay wouldn't have been able to parlay that album into a Def Jam partnership.
It's weird yall hold Reasonable Doubt to this weird "Nobody was checking for it" standard when it went Gold in a few months and had the same traction as other celebrated NY albums like The Infamous. It seems to be an overcorrection of its retroactive classic status.
Jay Z back then obviously had the respect of his peers strictly from lyrical ability as a prospect with the chops to fortify whatever NYC had in the works if BIG never got killed. I have no doubt he would’ve gotten co-signs by proxy on the strength of being close to BIG and being the least of those around BIG who needed “help”
BIG was cranking out his own music and then giving Kim/Cease/Junior Mafia material. Jay/Dame at least seemed self sufficient and worthy allies moving ahead. Still, you could look at Jay back then as leading after a few laps among cats like Mic Geronimo or Big L — dudes who had deals but not crazy mainstream exposure. And maybe part of that is them not having a Dame-type dude next to them
But BIG being gone opened that lane that someone like Mase didn’t slide into (nor would be able to handle), and other upper tier artists like Snoop or Busta were already very established.
spliz
SplizThaDon
That’s cause BP isn’t a lyrical highlight of Jay’s career. It was his least lyrical album up until that point.
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spliz
SplizThaDon
RD had a whole single on a hit movie soundtrack. It was a dope album at the time but it wasn’t some cultural or commercial smash. It was just a really dope album from that year. I look at it as a classic but it’s not one of them groundbreaking classics commercially or culturally.Eh, I've seen anecdotal evidence of NY cats hyping up Jay-Z as the hidden gem that had next after Biggie died and then having egg on their face when the Sunshine video came out and everyone else was like "So this is your new Biggie huh
RD wasn't a commercial smash but it had the streets - if it didn't resonate Jay wouldn't have been able to parlay that album into a Def Jam partnership.
It's weird yall hold Reasonable Doubt to this weird "Nobody was checking for it" standard when it went Gold in a few months and had the same traction as other celebrated NY albums like The Infamous. It seems to be an overcorrection of its retroactive classic status.
MikeStamina
All Star
Your main point was Nas can't influence the media so why bother.
And I kept telling you Jay does it masterfully.
Look, Reasonable Doubt was a regional album that received 4mics in the Source.
Nobody in Dallas was bumping that shyt in 96.
Till one of my guys went to NY for the summer n got hip. Then he did the same for me knowing I was a east coast head.
But today RD is known as this undeniable classic that might be best in Jay's catalog.
My point is Jay's success, influence, team, had a lot to do with the narrative switch in the MEDIA. IRT, none of them was acting like this is the greatest thing since sliced bread
That shyt was dope. It was on that Sprung soundtrack and the video had scenes from the movie laced throughout.
Jay Z alone didn't influence that though. Jay Z has pushed for A LOT that never got any traction. Why isn't MCHG held in higher regard since Jay had it in his Top 5? Why isn't "Jay Z Blue" an official color? Why did he make "Blueprint 2" and say "they helped Nas cheat" if he had so much control over the narrative?
So what if Jay got 4 mics in the Source in 1996 for RD and no one was bumping that album in Dallas. Sometimes an album becomes classic over time. If Jay exerted as much influence as you're stating, he'd have all of his albums being argued as classic.