Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

RickyGQ

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I think you need to give this up. This team, as constructed is not good enough to be a 4 or 5 seed. They don't have the depth, they don't play enough defense... they just aren't good enough.

This kind of mentality is what leads to teams trading away future first round picks for Jeff Teague. This is a rebuilding year, but the knicks should be in no way desperate to make the playoffs, or make some kind of unrealistic push.

:francis:
You my dog and all, but fukk out of here with all that SENSE and shyt. I'm trying to dream over here pleighboi... :camby:

After the Warriors, the Knicks could very well win their next 5 before the all star break and be 28-27.... :banderas:

It's gonna happen brehs... I can feel it... :blessed:

(Edit: I agree on Teague though... Only down with a trade if we don't lose any significant young pieces or pieces)
 

Derek Lee

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Taking the road less traveled, Knicks' Lance Thomas finds his way home
By James Herbert | NBA writer

January 29, 2016 2:57 pm ET

TORONTO -- When Lance Thomas played for Duke, he didn't think about the walk-ons much. When he was at St. Benedict's Prep, he didn't pay much attention to the guys at the end of the bench. Now, he admires them. Once a highly-touted recruit, Thomas left Durham in 2010 and found himself playing for the D-League's Austin Toros. It can sound phony when athletes say they've been humbled, but with him there is no other way to put it.

Thomas has been waived three times by NBA teams since arriving in Austin. He was classified as undersized a thousand times before his versatility was seen as a strength. He can tell you about going undrafted, signing 10-day contracts and playing in China. This year, while a 7-foot-3 Latvian has attracted all the attention for his unlikely rise with the New York Knicks, Thomas has quietly earned a secure spot in their rotation. He will do anything to keep it.

"Every team I've played for so far, I had to make the team," Thomas said. "It was like the roles were reversed for me. It just makes me very appreciative of the journey, of the grind."

Knicks center Robin Lopez remembers Thomas trying to hold on to a roster spot in New Orleans, calling him "definitely one of the two hardest-working guys I know in the league." The other one is Damian Lillard.

In a 12-and-a-half-minute interview, Thomas said, "I trusted my work" five times. The phrase has become something of a motto for him, as he's put a #TrustYourWork on all of his Instagram photos lately. When you're on the margins of the best league in the world, that trust will be tested repeatedly.
012916_lance1.jpg

Lance Thomas assesses his options. (USATSI)
Thomas signed his first NBA contract with the New Orleans Hornets on Dec. 9, 2011, the day after the lockout ended. He played just four minutes for them before they waived him on New Year's Eve. A week later, he was back in Austin.

New Orleans eventually signed him for the rest of the season, but only after a pair of 10-day contracts. Most games, he had no idea when or if he'd get to play. He got something out of it, though.

"I learned how much harder I have to work to stick," Thomas said. "I learned how to become a professional. Coach Monty Williams really was a great mentor for me as far as teaching me how to be a professional, things that I can do to separate myself."

In the D-League, Thomas saw other players trying to score as much as possible. They thought that big numbers might get them noticed by NBA scouts. Thomas, though, averaged just 10 field goal attempts, fewer than guys like Julian Wright, Justin Dentmon and Leo Lyons. Hungry to prove doubters wrong, he looked at the big picture and stayed within himself.

Hearing Thomas' name makes former Toros teammate Cory Joseph smile wide. Joseph, a fellow D-League success story, described him as an "incredible hard worker" who was always serious about winning.

"My approach in the D-League was different from a lot of guys," Thomas said. "I just put two and two together. Teams are already paying guys millions of dollars to score those amount of points, so what can you do to separate yourself and carve out a niche? Very rarely does a guy come from the D-league and become a really big-time scorer.

"I just wanted to go out and show teams that I could defend multiple positions," he continued. "I felt like that was valuable. I felt like playing hard every possession is valuable, and being a guy that's not a distraction in the locker room is valuable. I stuck to that, I didn't change my formula. Even now, I haven't changed my formula, I'm just taking it to another level."
012916_lance4.jpg

Lance Thomas still lives in New Orleans in the summer. (USATSI)
Thomas' minutes remained inconsistent when he was called back up to New Orleans, but he fell in love with the city and moved there full-time. In the summer of 2013, he signed a partially-guaranteed deal with the newly renamed Pelicans. Then, seven games into the season, they cut him. Thomas was 25 years old and a free agent with career averages of 3.0 points and 2.3 rebounds.

He had always wanted to stay in the States, but decided to go to China and play for the Guangdong Foshan Dralions after Christmas. He was happy to return home when the season ended in mid-February, but liked the intense fans and the tough coaching.

"Guys think that when you don't make the NBA, you go other places, you can go lollygag and you're going to still be fine because you've had NBA experience or you're from the States," Thomas said. "But these guys want to win. Each team can only have two Americans, so if you're not doing your job you'll get replaced."

Thomas played for the Chicago Bulls' summer league team in 2014, then earned himself an invite to the Oklahoma City Thunder's training camp. He impressed the coaching staff with his ability to guard smaller players, and then-Thunder center Kendrick Perkins told the Oklahoman that the book on how to make a team should be called "The Lance Thomas Story."

Oklahoma City was stacked up front, so Thomas became a small forward. His playing time was plentiful when the team was banged up, but it evaporated when Kevin Durant came back from his first foot injury at the beginning of December. About a month later, Thomas was traded to New York and waived immediately. The Knicks brought him back for two 10-day contracts, then, just like when he was a rookie, he signed for the rest of the year.
012916_lance2.jpg

Lance Thomas dunks against his former team. (USATSI)
Born in Brooklyn and raised in New Jersey, Thomas grew up a Knicks fan. It's an "unbelievable experience" and a "dream come true" to play at home, he said, but when he first checked in for New York, the team was 30 games under .500.

"It was a very bleak situation," Knicks forward Lou Amundson said.

Amundson, who was acquired by New York at the same time as Thomas, said it would have been easy for a team like that to fall apart. Along with D-League call-up Langston Galloway, it was their job to prevent that from happening. When franchise player Carmelo Anthonywas ruled out for the season after the All-Star break, the Knicks wanted to see who would play hard and stay positive.

"The guys who really showed that are still here," Thomas said.

Thomas started 24 games for New York last season and started to expand the range on his jumper. When Knicks president Phil Jackson evaluated everybody at the end of the season, he said Thomas had "a funny release and a funny gait," but he "can be extremely valuable getting significant minutes off the bench."

For the first time in his pro career, Thomas did not have to play in summer league. New York re-signed him to a one-year deal in July.

"We talked about Lance a lot and what he means to our team, not just on the court but the culture and the environment we're trying to create on a daily basis in terms of practice and pre-practice workouts, mentality, mindset," Knicks coach Derek Fisher said. "He was an example of all of those things. So not the biggest name in the league, not the biggest name on our team, but just as valuable."

On Dec. 21, Thomas went 9-for-9 against the Orlando Magic for 24 points. That included three 3-pointers. Shortly thereafter, Detroit Pistons coach Stan Van Gundy told reporters Thomas should be in the Most Improved Player conversation. Per 36 minutes, Thomas is averaging 14.6 points and 3.6 rebounds, making 47 percent of his shots and 42 percent of his 3s while guarding point guards and power forwards. Amundson called him an anchor on defense and New York's most consistent player.

If he keeps playing like this, he will be in line for a massive raise in a few months. Thomas, though, would rather talk about making the playoffs for the first time.

"There's still snow in New York, so the summer is very far away," he said. "I'm locked in."
012916_lance3.jpg

Lance Thomas makes some Knicks fans happy in Philadelphia. (USATSI)
On Tuesday at Madison Square Garden, Thomas had the toughest job in the building: guarding Durant. Anthony sat out with knee soreness, and the Knicks managed to take the Thunder to overtime. Thomas finished with 16 points to Durant's 44, but no one could fault his 41 minutes of effort.

Durant, who has referred to Thomas as his "favorite player and favorite person in the league," told Thomas how happy he was to see him in this position. The respect is mutual.

"We were really going at each other for a span of time, but my hat goes off to him," Thomas said. "I learned a lot from him. He has a great approach to the game. Even when he was hurt with his foot, he had his boot on and was still shooting sitting down, doing form shots, doing whatever he can to keep his rhythm and everything. That was very admirable."

At the Air Canada Centre on Thursday, New York was even more shorthanded: No Anthony, and no rookie phenom Kristaps Porzingis, who was ill. The Toronto Raptors were riding a nine-game winning streak and the excitement of DeMar DeRozan being named an All-Star shortly before tipoff.

Before the game, Thomas sat at his locker in the warmup shirt and shorts of his favorite team as a kid, head down, hands clasped, preparing to start and check DeRozan. How did the journeyman get here?

"Determination," Thomas said. "I just kept fighting."

Link: Taking the road less traveled, Knicks' Lance Thomas finds his way home
Lance bout to get paid. :mjcryk2:
 

storyteller

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I think you need to give this up. This team, as constructed is not good enough to be a 4 or 5 seed. They don't have the depth, they don't play enough defense... they just aren't good enough.

This kind of mentality is what leads to teams trading away future first round picks for Jeff Teague. This is a rebuilding year, but the knicks should be in no way desperate to make the playoffs, or make some kind of unrealistic push.

Team as currently constructed beat the brakes off the 4 seed twice and were doing the same to the Celtics until Melo got injured. If Melo is healthy, they're as good as every team up to that 4 seed, not because they're some world beaters, but because none of those teams are very good either. You're overrating the rest of the East. The other portion of what I said is important too: "On the bolded We're 2-6 in the most recent stretch of 8. I think we should at least be 4-4 in that span, probably better considering how well Melo was playing." Even going 4 and 4 which is realistic (we were cooking Boston and I dare you to argue that Brooklyn beats us with Melo healthy), we'd be right in the mix with the schedule lightening up after GS. You act like it's unrealistic, but look at the rest of the standings. We'd be 24-24, the C's is 26-21; they're the five seed right now.That's a manageable gap.

As for a Teague trade, you don't do that ish for an unrealistic push now. You do that after you survey the FA class and realize there aren't many options for PG. Conley is the obvious improvement, he's looking at 20 mil a year long term. If you're ready to quit on Melo, then I can't imagine you'd want to add Conley for something like that. After him the next best PG is probably Rondo...not a great fit and his play is pricing him well above Teague's 8 million for two years. The cap increases will mean that even the PG's who would marginally improve this squad will command numbers that make Teague's contract look great (it's the same logic that made the RoLo contract reasonable to every pundit). Even after all that, I still would hesitate on dealing a future first, but I never said anything about trading a first for Teague here...Idk where you even got that ish.

Still, a trade for Teague at the right price makes plenty of sense. He expires the same time guys like Westbrook are available, so you wouldn't be locked into giving him a big pay day. He'd also buy you a year and half of Grant development, so that's another possibility to not have to pay him at the end of his current contract. It's a stop gap play that's better than any of the FA options after the expensive guys and if you're only giving up marginal assets or players set to expire and cost you more in the offseason anyway...why wouldn't you? The reality is we're probably gonna have to trade for a PG if we want to improve that spot. Even Mo Williams or Norris Cole would be worth a look, let alone Jeff Teague who is actually legit.
 
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storyteller

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Damn, I prolly won't get to watch this game til tomorrow but I'm hype to see how Galloway carries himself with KP and Melo leading the show.
 

Derek Lee

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This is hard for me, because I think Teague is a good player, but after next season he's going to be VERY expensive to keep.

I would be open to trading for him, as long as it's not mortgaging the future. Which kind of makes me wonder what we could give them. I don't want to give up future 1st's, Maybe some accumulated 2nds? Seraphin, Lance, (Obviously Jose) -- all of those guys. People seem to have soured on a guy like Jerian Grant already... so maybe some of you would be willing to make the swap of 4 years of Grant's growth for a season and a half (maybe) of Teague? I think that's a judgement you have to make on your own.

I don't necessarily see Jeff Teague as the kind of player that will drastically change the direction of our team. That being said, he IS a talent, and this team has a lack of talented individual players. He's shooting nearly 40% from 3 this year...right now, that looks like an outlier, but if was at like 38ish for the next year or two... that is a big improvement, because it is combined with a guy that can create off the dribble.

So it is hard for me to say... we don't have a ton of pieces that I consider untouchable, but I also don't want to be in the position of giving up a future 1st and two future 2nds for a guy that might be gone after next season.

I also REALLY don't believe they should give up Hernangomez's rights. He's big, skilled, and can do all of the things we LIKE that amundson does (effort, hustle, throw his body around) except he can also score well out of the PnR, and knows how to move off the ball, constantly toward the hoop, constantly finishing through contact. Plus he's young and cheap, man. YOUNG. AND. CHEAP.

If they ended up packaging Calderon and Jerian Grant (or a similar set of pieces) for Teague, I think that's a reasonable deal. But I do think it is important to remember that he's gonna be 28 this summer, when we go to re-sign him - in the MOST EXPENSIVE FREE AGENT PERIOD IN HISTORY- he'll be 29 and looking for a 4-5 year deal at 18+ million per.

That is the same summer that Steph Curry and Russell Westbrook will be free agents. And Blake Griffin, and a bunch of other restricted players (Gobert/Giannis/etc)

So my short answer is I like Teague, and I think the Knicks should pursue him. My longer answer is - while they should pursue him, they should not overpay for him now, because you have to overpay for him again in a year and a half.

But as a guy who just wants to watch the knicks play well right now... it's hard to not beg them to pull the trigger.

Is he better than anyone of our current backup big men on this roster?
 

I.V.

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:francis:
You my dog and all, but fukk out of here with all that SENSE and shyt. I'm trying to dream over here pleighboi... :camby:

After the Warriors, the Knicks could very well win their next 5 before the all star break and be 28-27.... :banderas:

It's gonna happen brehs... I can feel it... :blessed:

(Edit: I agree on Teague though... Only down with a trade if we don't lose any significant young pieces or pieces)

Aight, then, keep dreaming. I'm not mad at you.



Team as currently constructed beat the brakes off the 4 seed twice and were doing the same to the Celtics until Melo got injured. If Melo is healthy, they're as good as every team up to that 4 seed, not because they're some world beaters, but because none of those teams are very good either.

Well, they also got the brakes beat OFF them by the Jazz and the Bulls, and Milwaukee, twice.

And while, sure... you can say that on any given night they can beat the Hawks, Celtics, Pistons, or Heat -- the fact is they don't consistently perform as well as those teams, and they are not really able to - as currently constructed.

You don't get a 4 seed by being able to beat the 4 seed, you get the 4 seed by winning more games over the course of the season.



You're overrating the rest of the East. The other portion of what I said is important too: "On the bolded We're 2-6 in the most recent stretch of 8. I think we should at least be 4-4 in that span, probably better considering how well Melo was playing." Even going 4 and 4 which is realistic (we were cooking Boston and I dare you to argue that Brooklyn beats us with Melo healthy), we'd be right in the mix with the schedule lightening up after GS. You act like it's unrealistic, but look at the rest of the standings. We'd be 24-24, the C's is 26-21; they're the five seed right now.That's a manageable gap.

Yeah, but my man... you are playing with dreams there. They didn't win those games. Melo has already missed 6 games.. which objectively, does not portend well as the season grinds on.

And while it is fun to say "Sure, they could have won those games" - they didn't. And you can't get them back. Which means now you have to make them up... and this team - at least in my opinion - is not good enough to make up a 6 game gap.

I would like them to... but I do not think they will.



As for a Teague trade, you don't do that ish for an unrealistic push now. You do that after you survey the FA class and realize there aren't many options for PG. Conley is the obvious improvement, he's looking at 20 mil a year long term. If you're ready to quit on Melo, then I can't imagine you'd want to add Conley for something like that. After him the next best PG is probably Rondo...not a great fit and his play is pricing him well above Teague's 8 million for two years. The cap increases will mean that even the PG's who would marginally improve this squad will command numbers that make Teague's contract look great (it's the same logic that made the RoLo contract reasonable to every pundit). Even after all that, I still would hesitate on dealing a future first, but I never said anything about trading a first for Teague here...Idk where you even got that ish.

It is widely speculated that in order to get Teague, the Knicks would have to throw in a first rounder -- because they don't really have a piece comparable to Teague. And their best current asset (Grant) would basically mean they were trading a starting point guard for a backup point guard. So it makes sense that they'd be holding out for AT LEAST a future first in return for an All Star PG.


Still, a trade for Teague at the right price makes plenty of sense. He expires the same time guys like Westbrook are available, so you wouldn't be locked into giving him a big pay day. He'd also buy you a year and half of Grant development, so that's another possibility to not have to pay him at the end of his current contract. It's a stop gap play that's better than any of the FA options after the expensive guys and if you're only giving up marginal assets or players set to expire and cost you more in the offseason anyway...why wouldn't you? The reality is we're probably gonna have to trade for a PG if we want to improve that spot. Even Mo Williams or Norris Cole would be worth a look, let alone Jeff Teague who is actually legit.

I agree with this last portion. In fact, we pretty much agree top to bottom on Teague. For the right price, he makes a lot of sense, though I'd rather not pay the LIKELY asking price of a future first(s).


We just disagree on the outlook THIS season for this team, as they stand right now. Which is fine.

You are more optimistic, I think you are overrating the team, and ignoring obvious obstacles.

I am more pessimistic, but you think I'm overrating the rest of the east, and ignoring how good this team is when healthy.


I will say this in ALL seriousness: I hope you're right and I'm wrong. :obama:
 

I.V.

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Is he better than anyone of our current backup big men on this roster?

He's young. But I think he is better than almost all of them.

He won't be an impact defender at all (which is fine, because we don't have one of those off the bench) and he isn't the passer that O'Quinn is.

- He's a GREAT PnR big, with soft hands that seals well
- Much better running the floor
- Better at finishing through contact
- And much better at moving in open space, through a defense
- Crashes the offensive glass
- Absolutely PLANTS defenders in the post before he gets the ball.


He's not a great athlete, so he'll get blocked and struggle with some length/athleticism but he's strong as a bull, 6'11 with a 7'1 wingspand, and he could easily carry another 15 on his frame (already about 260)
 
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