Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[Victim of Racism]

Cause, female...

So true.

 

[GunRanger]

Tibs runs guys into the ground like D'antoni the only difference is its due to deference not offense. Just look at Noah and Rose. If the knicks are going to succeed they need Melo to not be ran down for this whole contract and hopefully have something in the tank all the way into his mid 30's ala dirk.

Anyhow Fisher has them playing defense and the triangle offense. Thibs would only have them play defense and struggle offense.

Rose got hurt because he kept playing through injuries. Butler misses thibs. Melo only has 2 years of all star lay left either way. He isnt a fitnesss demon. He had great defenses starting boozer and korver so miss me with that.


And thibs had great offenses but bad offensivevplayer. 2011 and 2012 they were top 5 in offensive rating.

 

[Victim of Racism]

Jose: I can't believe he managed to be worse than his stat-line suggests. I'm an advocate of him being aggressive to keep defenses honest, but Idk what happened to his shot last night. 4,5 and 3 on 2 of 9 shooting but only 1 attempt was from 3...which is the shot he needs to be taking to improve our spacing. Those midrange takes are only useful if they're going down because he's still fading away from the paint on every one of those. The assists were mainly gimmes. Defensively, the Spurs plotted to attack him directly through screen and roll plays and it worked all night. If the big man didn't flash to TP, Parker would get a lay-up but when the bigs did, Calderon couldn't do much to prevent passes or rebounds from the weakside. He got annihilated everywhere last night.

KP: There's no bigger statement than what the kid did last night. 28 and 11 on 11-21 when almost everyone else shot poorly. He was the key cog to keeping us in the game. One hole we saw but have known was that he didn't have the strength to hold LMA out of the deep post and he was victimized by it. The effort was there, but he got bodied up. Still he was victimized on multiple occasions and that will only change after he's been strength training, but I'm confident it'll come. His offense was a damned revelation. He started by taking an array of jumpers and when the bigs started chasing him outside, he slashed hard. He missed it but there was a scoop lay-up attempt that belongs almost solely to quality slashing guards. He hardly forced a thing and this was a night with no foolish defensive fouls. He was locked in and aggressive, never backed down and really just showed the IT factor.

AA: Was probably worse than Jose last night except for the final 3 or 4 minutes of the game. 3-8 for 8 points, 4 assists which was nice and 4 boards which is cool too. But 2 makes and 6 points came in those final minutes on desperation threes which showed some clutch (or luck) meaning that for 35 minutes or more he was invisible on offense. He couldn't get post position or utilize post ups enough to make anything big occur. Defensively was where he was REALLY bad. When we hid Calderon on Danny Green late, Danny Green was far less of a threat than the rest of the night. It just seemed like AA couldn't keep guys in front of him and when neither guard is keeping cats in front of him, our entire defense is going to struggle on the interior. He needed to be better.

Parker is a great mid-range jumpshooter (47%). Not against Jose last night. I hate Jose, but I think he deserves some credit for his defense last night. Parker had a very forgettable, invisible game. Rolo didn't stop paint points. SA got 60. Kawhi had 14. LMA had 12. Parker had 10. By quarter, SA had 14, 18, 16, 12 (the 12 in the 4th alone is on pace for a league-high 48).

I also don't understand your criticism of Jose taking mid-range jumpers. As good a mid-range jump-shooter as Parker is, Jose is even better (50%).

Why was Arron awful for his defense but KP's poor defense wasn't that big of a deal when LMA did far more damage than Green? Green did nothing in the 1st (scoreless, a foul, a turnover, nothing else), 2nd (scoreless, an assist, 2 steals, nothing else in 9 mins), and 4th quarter (3 points on 1-3 shooting, 2 rebounds, an assist, 2 fouls, a turnover in 12 mins). KP had to be benched for NY to get back into the game. Arron seems to get no credit for sparking the run from his game on both ends, yet, in your eyes, KP kept NY in the game just because of his offense? 7 of KP's 11 made fg's were wide open.

Arron doesn't have that luxury. He was double-teamed the whole night. One shot Arron made in the 4th was wide open from a broken play and the other was with Green all over him from well behind the arc (both shots were 3's). He moved the ball when doubled and got 4 assists to prove it. This isn't about KP's flaws, so hopefully no one tries to turn it into that. I just don't get the reasoning behind some of your statements.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

Here we go

 

[Victim of Racism]

Rose got hurt because he kept playing through injuries. Butler misses thibs. Melo only has 2 years of all star lay left either way. He isnt a fitnesss demon. He had great defenses starting boozer and korver so miss me with that.


And thibs had great offenses but bad offensivevplayer. 2011 and 2012 they were top 5 in offensive rating.

Boozer could rebound and didn't play in moth 4th quarters. Korver can defend.
Offensive rating means nothing. NY was 13th in offensive rating to start the season when their offense was much more trash than it is now (they were scoring 92 ppg on 40% and 30% from 3). They got that rating because of offensive rebounds, free throws (D-Will was playing a lot), and low turnovers.

In the 2011-2012 season, the Bulls were 18th in ppg, only scoring a pathetic 96 ppg. That's worse than NY right now. They were 17th in 3-point makes. All those numbers are poor when you have Watson, Korver, Rip, and Taj. Last season, Thibbs had Aaron, McBuckets, E'Twuan, Butler, Dunleavy, Mirotic, Gasol, Taj, and Snell and were still 22nd in fg% and 15th in ppg.

NY's defensive rating has been low all season because they don't get a lot of steals when their defense has been elite for most of the season. Offensive and Defensive Rating proves nothing.

 

[Victim of Racism]

Here we go

 

[thelonious21]

All yall gotta do is win the games you're supposed to.. I mean. U can't get mad at a Spurs loss.. it's like when ur Big Brother can still give u them hands.. yea..u been at the gym. Feeling yaself.. and he jus use that old head savvy on ya.

 

[Victim of Racism]

All yall gotta do is win the games you're supposed to.. I mean. U can't get mad at a Spurs loss.. it's like when ur Big Brother can still give u them hands.. yea..u been at the gym. Feeling yaself.. and he jus use that old head savvy on ya.

Exactly what happened. NY looked elite out there competing with them. Defending, taking care of the ball, finishing the 4th strong (scoring 25 and holding them to 21). They're getting better by the day. They've cleaned up the fouling, the shooting is improving (if 'Melo's 3 is back, watch yo' back), and the 4th quarter meltdowns seem to be improving. I believe in them and I hope they don't break my heart for it, like they're known to do. I wonder if 'Melo can be used as a penetrator for kick-outs, since teams are gonna collapse and he can't get a call. NY may not need a penetrating pg after all. I may be going too far.

 

[radio rahiem]

BTW For My "Cut Cable" Brehs, The MSGGO App Streams Knicks Games In HD, You Just Need Someone's Cable Log In Info

Also I Don't Think It Works Outside The Tri State

I can confirm it works. Logged in from Virginia last month.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

You going in on @storyteller analysis too?

Let breh cook.

 

[Victim of Racism]

You going in on @storyteller analysis too?

Let breh cook.

I didn't see you accusing @storyteller of "going in" and stopping anyone from "cooking" when he respectfully disagreed with a few points of I.V.'s analytical post a few weeks ago. @storyteller said:

I just see a quality post with some places where I respectfully disagree but think we can have a real intelligent conversation because I see your logic. I respect everything you said in the quotes even though I see a lot of points I don't fully agree with. We can go back and forth without being abrasive or taking extreme stances. Plus, I think it helps any poster to be open to changing their opinions in light of new information or developments. If we can get down to talking basketball, this thread will be a lot more fun like it was earlier in the season.

That post was much longer than that. He went into a lot of detail with his disagreements. I have questions about things I didn't understand, just like @storyteller did. If anyone is "going in", it's you. You're making something out of nothing. You're always doing that. How about you let me live.

 

[#SOG_soldier]

calderon didnt miss badly.


it's clear this team can be really good defensively. Time to stop bullshytting, and get rid of fisher, and bring in Thibs

Melo lasts 4 weeks under thibs

 

[Victim of Racism]

5-15 for 20 points
Well, I guess it's better than 4-17 for 19 points.


Meanwhile, he held Kawhi to 8-19 this time, which is better than the 8-16 he had last time around. But he still got outplayed, again.

Good thing ya'all have that weird genetic freak to keep things close.


Seriously, no Melo hate. Just I kept seeing his stans go a bit overboard when trying to argue against the fact that Kawhi really did smother him earlier this year.

Lol at "outplayed" when 'Melo had more points, rebounds, and assists on 1 knee at 31 years old than Kawhi and held Kawhi to a fg% that was 10% below his average. It was so bad, he resorted to flopping.

He didn't get any of his points against 'Melo in the 1st game. Kawhi was running from him, passing, and missing. The only baskets he made against 'Melo were from screens. Last night was the same story, except this time, he got a few in transition off of other people's turnovers ('Melo had zero turnovers). Lol at "smothered" when 'Melo started the season shooting 37%, had shot 25% and 37% in 2 of the 3 games before that Spurs game and shot 33%, 37%, 40% (against the Lake Show lol), and 43.5% in the 4 games after it.

In that game, this happened:

That's when he blew by Diaw. Now why would the DPOY need multiple defenders to be thrown at 'Melo when he can just "smother" him? Lol

As you also see in the photo, they sent him to the help. They did that all. night. long. Now why would the DPOY need so much help to guard 'Melo when he can just "smother" him?



Lol at "KP kept things close". He got benched down the stretch for putting NY in multiple double-digit holes from letting LMA and guards go off and NY went on a run. That said, I bet you won't call him a freak to his face.

 

[#SOG_soldier]

5-15 for 20 points
Well, I guess it's better than 4-17 for 19 points.


Meanwhile, he held Kawhi to 8-19 this time, which is better than the 8-16 he had last time around. But he still got outplayed, again.

Good thing ya'all have that weird genetic freak to keep things close.


Seriously, no Melo hate. Just I kept seeing his stans go a bit overboard when trying to argue against the fact that Kawhi really did smother him earlier this year.

Kawhi is better than melo at this point. So him being outplayed is okay in my book

 

[storyteller]

Parker is a great mid-range jumpshooter (47%). Not against Jose last night. I hate Jose, but I think he deserves some credit for his defense last night. Parker had a very forgettable, invisible game. Rolo didn't stop paint points. SA got 60. Kawhi had 14. LMA had 12. Parker had 10. By quarter, SA had 14, 18, 16, 12 (the 12 in the 4th alone is on pace for a league-high 48).

RoLo didn't stop paint points, but he stopped Parker from easy looks all night. Which is why Parker picked up so many assists and why LMA and Kawhi ate so many offensive boards. Parker's mid range is damned good, but he was settling by the end and bricked the one that gave us the opportunity to take a game winner. If you have to choose between Parker inside or shooting a midrange, you ALWAYS pick the midrange. Calderon didn't play good defense imo, the defensive breakdowns all started with him outside of the deep post situation.

I also don't understand your criticism of Jose taking mid-range jumpers. As good a mid-range jump-shooter as Parker is, Jose is even better (50%).

I don't mind him taking mid range but it doesn't change spacing. Calderon being a threat from deep has a bigger impact on spacing because it pulls defenders out further. I'm not saying he shouldn't take midrange, but that he needs to compound them with three pointers otherwise we're still trotting out players who can be best contained by dropping back closer to the paint.

Why was Arron awful for his defense but KP's poor defense wasn't that big of a deal when LMA did far more damage than Green? Green did nothing in the 1st (scoreless, a foul, a turnover, nothing else), 2nd (scoreless, an assist, 2 steals, nothing else in 9 mins), and 4th quarter (3 points on 1-3 shooting, 2 rebounds, an assist, 2 fouls, a turnover in 12 mins). KP had to be benched for NY to get back into the game. Arron seems to get no credit for sparking the run from his game on both ends, yet, in your eyes, KP kept NY in the game just because of his offense? 7 of KP's 11 made fg's were wide open. Arron doesn't have that luxury. He was double-teamed the whole night. One shot Arron made in the 4th was wide open from a broken play and the other was with Green all over him from well behind the arc (both shots were 3's). He moved the ball when doubled and got 4 assists to prove it. This isn't about KP's flaws, so hopefully no one tries to turn it into that. I just don't get the reasoning behind some of your statements.

So I'm a bit confused on how you think I made KP's poor defense out to not be a big deal. I basically said he got punked "One hole we saw but have known was that he didn't have the strength to hold LMA out of the deep post and he was victimized by it. The effort was there, but he got bodied up. Still he was victimized on multiple occasions and that will only change after he's been strength training, but I'm confident it'll come." That's everything I wrote on KP's defense...the only compliment being that I expect him to develop the strength to do better in the future. Also LMA is a far better player than Green. Green has been pretty bad this season. He hit or passed most of his season averages. Aldridge was right at or around his season averages. What's missing from that picture though is how much help each player got in order to get those results.

So on a play when Green pump fakes AA who has chased him off the line, Green will dribble by and be met by a second defender (typically a big man). This means a second defender has been compromised by AA's committing too hard to close out when he should have been staying home in the first place. When the big circles over, his man has position to either receive a pass for an easier basket or position for an offensive board. This is why you see those overblown offensive rebound totals. KP on the other hand was left alone. This means a big man gets too much time to post up, get deeper and make his move unchallenged by a help defender (in this case it's the reverse, a guard should flash over and make him uncomfortable and make it back to his man). The best example of this is to watch Melo post ups, there isn't a player in the league that doesn't have flashing help defense against Melo in the post. No one can contain Melo alone in the post. LMA isn't quite that dominant, but once it's established that he can't hold LMA without a flash, someone has to flash. That's what I mean by "left him on an island." That deep zone on the court was an absolute isolation with no worries about a second defender. It's all gotta be synchronized when it's going well, but last night the guards weren't effective flashing against post defenders and they didn't keep opposing guards in front of them. KP was bad, but AA and Jose were worse imo.