President Obama finally sticking to his guns and nominating Chuck Hagel

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yeah, you're right about his voting record. i wasnt familiar with it until now. the dude definitely opposes homosexuality. at this point in history i doubt that is a disqualifier, considering the majority of his opponents are on the right wing. i dont think the right wing media ecosystem can handle the mental gymnastics.

Yeah. Probably the most comprehensive but ridiculous anti-Hagel ad (it was a full page ad in the NY Times) so far was put out by the Log Cabin Republicans, who claim he's wrong on "Iran, Israel, and gays" (despite their endorsment of every major anti-gay Republican candidate who ever ran or was nominated for an important position.) The Right is really pulling out all the stops for this one.
 

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But your support of this nomination continues to prove me right. Pure hypocrisy.

Can you explain how so?

I support Hagel in this specific job. I wouldn't support him as Senator, President or Supreme Court Justice.

The truth is, Hagel might just be the most liberal SecDef we've had in a long time in the sense that his libertarian stances on foreign policy and civil liberties as they regard to defense have been pretty good. Matter of fact, during the Bush Regime, Hagel might have been Bush/Cheney/Rove's most prominent criticizer on issues of foreign policy and national security measures.

This is a positive.

He does trouble me on terms of his stances on abortion, civil rights, gay rights and initial stances on wiretapping (among all the other typical GOP bullshyt), but that won't matter in this current job. He is not legislating or deciding legislation.

The best thing about it is the fact that the man served in Combat as an enlisted man. Outside of the military this may not mean a big deal, but to military personnel it does. An enlisted man is much more inclined to have sympathy to the actual cost of war on both sides of engagement. The fact that the man received two purple hearts as a Sergeant in Vietnam tells you how much combat he has seen.
 

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Can you explain how so?

I support Hagel in this specific job. I wouldn't support him as Senator, President or Supreme Court Justice.

The truth is, Hagel might just be the most liberal SecDef we've had in a long time in the sense that his libertarian stances on foreign policy and civil liberties as they regard to defense have been pretty good. Matter of fact, during the Bush Regime, Hagel might have been Bush/Cheney/Rove's most prominent criticizer on issues of foreign policy and national security measures.

This is a positive.

He does trouble me on terms of his stances on abortion, civil rights, gay rights and initial stances on wiretapping (among all the other typical GOP bullshyt), but that won't matter in this current job. He is not legislating or deciding legislation.

The best thing about it is the fact that the man served in Combat as an enlisted man. Outside of the military this may not mean a big deal, but to military personnel it does. An enlisted man is much more inclined to have sympathy to the actual cost of war on both sides of engagement. The fact that the man received two purple hearts as a Sergeant in Vietnam tells you how much combat he has seen.

I never said Hagel was or wasn't a positive. The point was you support him in this role despite reservations about what he believes on a variety of issues. That is truthfully no different than individuals who support candidates because they are the best people on certain issues and in light of the alternative. You kept trying to paint me as an Obama hack and unprincipled because I was against the NDAA, but vote for him because of the alternative given the state I was registered in. Hagel has a horrendous record on tax policy, labor issues, civil rights, gender issues, etc.

You're trying to play this game of technicalities where you can say well "Hagel doesn't have legislative ability" but that does not matter. He is an official in government who has stances that you disagree with in principle that you're supporting because of what you believe in him on other issues (and because you're a military guy and biased in that way). On balance, you believe he is the better candidate. People could very easily use his stances on other issues to say that symbolically he is not the type of man that should sit in that post and that he is the wrong man for the job because of that. But some liberals are compromising on it because he's for shorter terms for military members, a reduction of the USdepartments, ambivalent towards Israel, etc.

Government is full of compromises in myriad ways, whether on policy or in principle. Your argument that your compromise is a "lesser" compromise is weak. Hagel voted for a lot of the legislation you're against as well. Some of that legislation (like the Patriot Act and would have undoubtedly voted for the NDAA) that will enhance what he will be able to get away with in this position.
 

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Love this move.. his stance on the Jewish state is perfect and him talking sh*t to the homo elite really is just icing on the cake

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Obama Upends Iran Debate By Picking Chuck Hagel

Administration officials say Obama chose Hagel for mundane reasons — a personal relationship, experience with veterans issues, and even the “tradition” — but they have thrust the combative former combat veteran into a bitter Washington battleground. And the left-leaning foreign policy forces who spent four years disappointed in a the president of drone strikes and surveillance powers are suddenly feeling vindication. They are, in particular, seeing a fellow foe of a military strike on Iran elevated to a key cabinet post — and a president who seems finally willing to pick a fight on that issue.
“The Hagel confirmation battle will show whether the AIPAC crowd has cried wolf too many times and the system is now becoming numb,” said Steve Clemons, a central figure in what he calls “progressive realist” foreign policy and Washington editor at large for The Atlantic. The fight “will also out the fact that the real issue here is not US-Israel relations but rather how fearful defense contractors which suck up a huge amount of defense spending are pulling a lot of these levers,” he said.
“The controversy leading up to the Hagel nomination has tested just how much space there is in Washington for rational and independent thinking on American policy in the Middle East,” said Jeremy Ben-Ami, the director of the left-leaning Israel advocacy group J Street, which was formed in part to make domestic politcal space for Obama to exert pressure on Israel. “It's good to see the nomination moving forward because it means there's more bark than bite to the intimidation some right-wing groups have tried to exert over those who disagree with them.”
Peter Beinart, the former New Republic editor who’s now a leading voice well to that magazine’s left made a similar case column to be published on Monday on his Open Zion blog at The Daily Beast that “At the heart of the opposition to Hagel is the fear that he will do what Republicans have thus far largely prevented: bring America’s experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan into the Iran debate.”
Beinart also defended a controversial Hagel jab at the “Jewish lobby,” arguing that it’s a sentiment that many in Washington hold but few say aloud and that Hagel displayed “uncommon honesty.”
“I’ve also heard many government officials, some of them Jewish, say things similar to what Hagel is now being flayed for having [said],” Beinart wrote. “The difference is that those other officials first confirmed that they were speaking off the record. One even lowered his voice and closed the door.”
Their hope — and their foes’ fear — is that Hagel’s confirmation could mean that views outside what is considered the mainstream on Israel and Iran begin to replace the more hawkish Washington consensus. A Hagel confirmation could change the terms of the debate on the Middle East by challenging the Republican Party with the views of one of its own. And Hagel, a Republican whose views were altered by the Iraq war, has the potential to affect the prospect of a war with Iran, some argue.
Administration officials, in public and in private, do not make this case, though they say they’re eager to engage the debate.
“If the Republicans are going to look at Chuck Hagel, a decorated war hero and Republican who served two terms in the Senate, and vote no because he bucked the party line on Iraq, then they are so far in the wilderness that they’ll never get out,” said one administration official.
 

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While the gay thing should not be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things since it was one mistatement that he has since walked back, Hagel's issues with the gays goes further than that becase of his voting record on gay issues while in the Senate. The Human Rights Council (the more political of the gay advocacy groups) are not big fans of his and it is likely that the gay rights folks could still make a stink.
But thatis nothing compared to his Israel issue. I don't see how his stance on Israel is not going to make the chances of his making it through the confirmation process a much harder fight than anyone is thinking. It won't just be the GOP that comes after him for that, there are just as many Dems that are majorly supportive of Israel who wo't want to have a guy who can be seen as "anti-Israel" at Defense.
I honestly don't see why Obama is picking this fight either. Hagel's confirmation is not a slam dunk and the criticisms are coming from both sides of the aisle...why seek out the headache of a contentious confirmation hearing for a guy that has no worthwhile base of support or even a major history of legiuslative accomplishment to boast about?
 

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he's basically a realist instead of neocon. bob gates was like that too and obama went with him too. i guess it's something he counts as important..

the Dem bench is actually full of interventionists as well it's rare to have someone from the old school realist mode around
 

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he's basically a realist instead of neocon. bob gates was like that too and obama went with him too. i guess it's something he counts as important..

the Dem bench is actually full of interventionists as well it's rare to have someone from the old school realist mode around

That is what's crazy...Hagel doesn't inspire enough support from either side in Congress. Pretty much every Repub on the Sunday talk shows all said they planned on voting for John Kerry as SoS with no questions asked but Hagel just seems like more trouble than he would be worth.
 

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That is what's crazy...Hagel doesn't inspire enough support from either side in Congress. Pretty much every Repub on the Sunday talk shows all said they planned on voting for John Kerry as SoS with no questions asked but Hagel just seems like more trouble than he would be worth.

When did you turn soft friend?
 

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When did you turn soft friend?

I'm still as cynical as they come but I don't get why he would waste the political capital on nominating Hagel of all people.
If military service and a pragmatic streak are the sole reason for the pick I could think of better dudes for the post than Hagel...Bob Kerrey Wesley Clark and Jim Webb spring to mind.
At the very least you wouldn't have a guy capable of getting Dems and Republicans to agree on not liking him.
 

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I'm still as cynical as they come but I don't get why he would waste the political capital on nominating Hagel of all people.
If military service and a pragmatic streak are the sole reason for the pick I could think of better dudes for the post than Hagel...Bob Kerrey Wesley Clark and Jim Webb spring to mind.
At the very least you wouldn't have a guy capable of getting Dems and Republicans to agree on not liking him.

Man, this dude was out there front and center calling the bullshyt out. Something hit him in late 2006 that changed him around. He was going harder than Democrats on many fronts.

Hagel is a combat wounded, enlisted Vietnam Veteran. Being enlisted is a big part of the deal for me. His eventual opposition to the PATRIOT Act, Iraq War, AIPAC, Iran-Saber Rattling are a huge step forward.

You can't speak negatively about AIPAC/Israel in this country. You have to be completely foaming at the mouth for war with Iran. Now we have someone who might not be (we'll eventually see).
 
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