Philosophers? Here for debate or discussion

OsO

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My question for those that think free will exists...how do you believe the universe (and everything began)?


i think about this all the time... how did all of this even come to be?!?! what is the reason we exist, or ANYTHING even exists in the first place?

but im interested in how you worded your question... why are you limiting the theorizing of the origins of the universe to only those that think free will exists?
 

KOSH

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id take either if you chose first but ill take no free will...

not only is there a minimization of "perceived free will" due to social constraints (are you really doing what you freely choose to do?), but even the ability to make decisions for yourself is an illusion.

not only are there patterns and systems in the universe that reach far beyond the scope of human agency (showing how insignificant our individual "decisions" really are in the grand scheme of things), but the laws of physics seems to indicate that most, if not all, of our lives is just a product of causality rather than individual volition

Interesting...so you don't take the side of the quantum theory fanatics who argue that the "laws of physics" are an elaborate fiction that have been disproved by the indeterminacy of sub-atomic particles?
 

KOSH

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the subconscious mind isn't clouded by personal bias. people don't have to consciously understand everything about a subject or situation when taking action. a person could walk down the street to the end of the block and turn either left or right if they wanted to. or they could just say fudge it and stay home.
its not the age/time or situation that may determine a person's decisions and actions.

If the spectrum of choices available to us is limited by our place in history, then wouldn't age/time constrain the choices we make? We wouldn't say that a journeyman in 13th-century England had a "choice" about getting a higher education. Yet there were writings floating about in educated circles that could have profoundly impacted his everyday decision-making processes.

Another, bigger problem with the doctrine of "free will" is the notion of responsibility. Partly because of the way that the history of thought has flowed from Plato onward, we take for granted that the subject is an "individual soul" to whom bad or good things happen, and who is responsible for ensuring that the best things happen to him- things that, by some miraculous ordering of the universe, also happen to benefit beings writ large. This seems to be the great ballast of the notion of free will. But what if the universe should turn out to have no guiding telos? Where does that leave responsibility? Where does that leave the "good soul" which is responsible for choosing only good, or at least benign, influences upon itself?
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

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Interesting...so you don't take the side of the quantum theory fanatics who argue that the "laws of physics" are an elaborate fiction that have been disproved by the indeterminacy of sub-atomic particles?

No i do not take their side at all. I don't think anything can be proven by indeterminacy except indeterminacy itself.
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

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i think about this all the time... how did all of this even come to be?!?! what is the reason we exist, or ANYTHING even exists in the first place?

but im interested in how you worded your question... why are you limiting the theorizing of the origins of the universe to only those that think free will exists?

i just find it interesting that those who truly believe in free will generally don't have much of a thesis for the beginning point of the universe...i was moreso interested to see how the views differ amongst free will believers..most of them just believe in infinite regress and call it a day..

my theory is this. NOTHING CAN'T EXIST. If Nothing exists then it is Something. Nothing "existed" before "Something", a paradox of monumental significance...since this just could not Be, "Nothing" exploded unto itself and became "Something".

this defines the "space" in which the universe is encapsulated...the pure Nothingness from the Beginning...
 

KOSH

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I just feel that if it is bounded, it isnt truly free. And it's a shame about Heidegger...he has a lot of great ideas but Nazism? :what:

I can't read the words of a Nazi and accept any of that, so I wrote him off. It's a damn shame too because normally Im not one to completely discard someone because of one viewpoint, but Nazism is the exception.

I felt the same way once. And then I was forced in a class to think through the implications of Being-Toward-Death, and I haven't been able to look at philosophy in the same way since.

The way I ease my pangs of conscience when reading Heidegger is remembering that Locke, who practically groomed the landscape of modern liberalism, believed that slave expeditions were justified because Africans put themselves in a state of war with the British.

My suggestion would be to not write him off because of a tremendous moral failure. Some of the books he wrote have practically caused seismic shifts in the way we philosophize about many of the topics you touched on in this thread, e.g. Existence and Being (on the question of how science and logic defines "Nothingness," in the section "What Is Metaphysics?").
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

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I felt the same way once. And then I was forced in a class to think through the implications of Being-Toward-Death, and I haven't been able to look at philosophy in the same way since.

The way I ease my pangs of conscience when reading Heidegger is remembering that Locke, who practically groomed the landscape of modern liberalism, believed that slave expeditions were justified because Africans put themselves in a state of war with the British.

My suggestion would be to not write him off because of a tremendous moral failure. Some of the books he wrote have practically caused seismic shifts in the way we philosophize about many of the topics you touched on in this thread, e.g. Existence and Being (on the question of how science and logic defines "Nothingness," in the section "What Is Metaphysics?").

Thanks for the advice. My theory is somewhat predicated on the concept that logic defines Nothingness..and I had never really read him..thought my theory was organic. :snoop:
 

TrueEpic08

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Thanks for the advice. My theory is somewhat predicated on the concept that logic defines Nothingness..and I had never really read him..thought my theory was organic. :snoop:

A word of advice, I just assume nothing I think and conceive of is organic until proven otherwise (which almost never happens).

And yeah, I just get past all of Heidegger's past dealings and cut to the theories. It's easier on your life.

If the spectrum of choices available to us is limited by our place in history, then wouldn't age/time constrain the choices we make? We wouldn't say that a journeyman in 13th-century England had a "choice" about getting a higher education. Yet there were writings floating about in educated circles that could have profoundly impacted his everyday decision-making processes.

Another, bigger problem with the doctrine of "free will" is the notion of responsibility. Partly because of the way that the history of thought has flowed from Plato onward, we take for granted that the subject is an "individual soul" to whom bad or good things happen, and who is responsible for ensuring that the best things happen to him- things that, by some miraculous ordering of the universe, also happen to benefit beings writ large. This seems to be the great ballast of the notion of free will. But what if the universe should turn out to have no guiding telos? Where does that leave responsibility? Where does that leave the "good soul" which is responsible for choosing only good, or at least benign, influences upon itself?

It negates it, to some extent, because that whole moral notion of a good and evil soul is a theological one made to seem somewhat natural (from Plato yes, but developing through means like Zoroastrian/Manichaean theology and, the most explicit and immanent influence on us Americans, Calvinist thought).

Now I'm not attempting to say that there is no such thing as responsibility in that case, just that there is no overriding moral principle that determines an absolute "good" from an absolute "evil" in the way that any decision in and of itself can be good or evil. Decisions are only good and evil (in so much as they can be, as they are not inherently so, and beyond even that "good" and "evil" are only moral-ideological values derived from an attempt to make "fortune" and "misfortune" concrete and apply them in a simplified, universal way) in how they relate to the context that they are made in and their results. All of those types of ideas complicates that notion of responsibility in ways that are not culturally and ideologically acceptable, so we default to the Platonic/Theological definition.

Basically, I don't deal with responsibility until I can identify the cultural bounds (and they are multi-valent and cross-cutting, which has been an underlying theme of this discussion not really made explicit) within which a decision is made. Then you can figure out how "free" a person is to make certain decisions and how "responsible" they are for it.
 

Benny P

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WELL LET ME TELL YA SUMTHIN BROTHER! THAT ARGUMENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO DUUUDE! BUT NOT AFTER THE ADVENT OF MODERN NEUROSCIENCE, BROTHER! THE MIND IS A FUNCTION OF THE BRAIN UNLESS YOU'VE GOT HULKAMANIA, BROTHER!

:noah:
 

OsO

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i just find it interesting that those who truly believe in free will generally don't have much of a thesis for the beginning point of the universe...i was moreso interested to see how the views differ amongst free will believers..most of them just believe in infinite regress and call it a day..

i think thesis' about the beginning of the universe are limited in general... nobody really knows how or when this whole thing started.

our theories in this department are quite pathetic when you think about it (big bang, God created everything, infinite regress, etc)... and rightfully so because our perspective is so limited being contained within 3D. i truly think it's something we wont be able to fully grasp while in this physical vessel.

my theory is this. NOTHING CAN'T EXIST. If Nothing exists then it is Something. Nothing "existed" before "Something", a paradox of monumental significance...since this just could not Be, "Nothing" exploded unto itself and became "Something".

this defines the "space" in which the universe is encapsulated...the pure Nothingness from the Beginning...

i agree. the term "non-existent" should not even, exist :lolbron:
 

Dirty_Jerz

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i agree. the term "non-existent" should not even, exist :lolbron:


:gladbron:



mind-blown-26.jpg
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

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i think thesis' about the beginning of the universe are limited in general... nobody really knows how or when this whole thing started.

our theories in this department are quite pathetic when you think about it (big bang, God created everything, infinite regress, etc)... and rightfully so because our perspective is so limited being contained within 3D. i truly think it's something we wont be able to fully grasp while in this physical vessel.



i agree. the term "non-existent" should not even, exist :lolbron:

:smugfavre:

Exactly. Those who believe in infinite regress ( a lot of of people ) must then accept that there will never be a true justification for any event in the chain because each proposition requires justification and each justification needs support..with one event not having these things, the chain of events can be infinitely questioned. Humans must accept the fact that infinite regress is a fallacy in order to ever actually get anywhere in these beginning theories.
 
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sometimes a question will disappear without having found an objective answer. having realizations (in most cases, subjective truths) helps make the answers to those questions at the forefront, irrelevant...
 

usopp

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If the spectrum of choices available to us is limited by our place in history, then wouldn't age/time constrain the choices we make? We wouldn't say that a journeyman in 13th-century England had a "choice" about getting a higher education. Yet there were writings floating about in educated circles that could have profoundly impacted his everyday decision-making processes.

Another, bigger problem with the doctrine of "free will" is the notion of responsibility. Partly because of the way that the history of thought has flowed from Plato onward, we take for granted that the subject is an "individual soul" to whom bad or good things happen, and who is responsible for ensuring that the best things happen to him- things that, by some miraculous ordering of the universe, also happen to benefit beings writ large. This seems to be the great ballast of the notion of free will. But what if the universe should turn out to have no guiding telos? Where does that leave responsibility? Where does that leave the "good soul" which is responsible for choosing only good, or at least benign, influences upon itself?
it doesn't really matter what age or situation a person lives in or is subject to. a person still has a choice of action to make, no matter how limited their options might be. that crosses all of our reality.
 
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