Petition to get rapbeats banned from HL

[Rarely-Wrong Liggins]

On the one hand @DEAD7 won poster of the year () but on the other hand there are people who want this forum to be little more than an echo chamber. The dualities.

 

[NoMayo15]

rapbeats is probably one of the worst posters in all KTL. His posts are barley legible -- with his run-on sentences, using periods where commas should go, etc. Half the battle is trying to translate what he's trying to say, nevermind that it's usually irrational and unsupported nonsense.

But no, I don't think being illogical is a bannable offense. Ignore him if you really can't stand it.

I love how, in his most recent attempt not to look foolish, he quote-mines sections of state constitutions that include a reference to a god, as if that proves his original position. Of course he omits that there is no reference to a god/creator in the US constitution (other than the common way of dating used at the time), even though we were all talking about the first amendment. Regardless, that doesn't support the notion that the US was founded with Christian principles ... especially when many of these "Christian principles", when enforced, have been deemed un-constitutional. Of course things like religious litmus tests can sneak though on the state/local level when you have a democracy and 90% of the people believe something! Fortunately, we have a (secular) constitution that prohibit all the things Christians would like to enforce.

 

[dennis roadman]

this thread is hilarious

delusions of grandeur abound

 

[rapbeats]

So this dude uses state constitutions in an argument about the federal religion.

God, Creator, Almighty God, Divine, etc. Are you really that naive to believe it is in reference only to a Christian God? Are you really not aware that almost every other religion in the world uses these same terms for their God?

Where did you get your education?

WRONG, i used the state constitutions + the fact your founding fathers were mostly bible lovers and church goers as proof the nation was built on biblical principles.

what ....its not called the UNITED...STATES anymore?

let it go.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence.

The Declaration of Independence appeals to God no less than three times; four to those who can see His Name in the phrase “protection of divine providence.” Five to those who can admit the phrase “created equal” means created by God, not evolved from chaos.
No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees. aka Bible Thumpers to the 10th degree
John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be.”–Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the Constitution

“The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy are they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!” –The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.
Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the Constitution

“I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.” –Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.
Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

“Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.”

Again we are not going to say that the Founders met in the Independence Hall and said whatsoever about Christianity; however, when one does read the actual words we believe that there can be little doubt. Just one more issue about logistics: 92% of the immigrants were coming from Northern European nations where they were Christian nations.

 

[rapbeats]

....

These Christian quotes of the founding fathers will give you an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

 

[rapbeats]

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.

Notice of Correction: I wish to acknowledge that the following quotation, previously attributed to James Madison, has been found to be the actual declaration of Rev. Jonathan dikkinson, first president of Princeton University where James Madison studied. In researching this correction, I discovered as well that some sources wrongly attribute the quote to Rev. John Witherspoon, the president of Princeton University when James Madison graduated.

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History by Stephen K. McDowell, p. 93.

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania

"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

"I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of theirrepentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

"I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

"I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

 

[rapbeats]

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

"If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

"The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible."
--American Statesman Series, p. 360.

 

[rapbeats]

which pretty much proves my point. when they were talking about freedom of religion. they were talking about two things a choice not to believe and a choice to choose which christian denomination to role with. they were not talking about Buddhism, Hinduism, or Islam. Now we know we have made it clear thats what we mean today. So yes the US of A says you're free to practice whatever belief or non belief you want.

Again non of this means i think these dudes were great or perfect per the good book. i mean they had slaves and not in the employee since. All i'm stating are the facts. they attempted to base a lot of our foundation on biblical principles. STOP FIGHTING IT. you dont have to like it. it is...what it is.

Ennumerating the Founding Fathers
The three major foundational documents of the United States of America are the Declaration of Independence (July 1776), the Articles of Confederation (drafted 1777, ratified 1781) and the Constitution of the United States of America (1789). There are a total of 143 signatures on these documents, representing 118 different signers. (Some individuals signed more than one document.)

There were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. There were 48 signers of the Articles of Confederation. All 55 delegates who participated in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 are regarded as Founding Fathers, in fact, they are often regarded as the Founding Fathers because it is this group that actually debated, drafted and signed the U.S. Constitution, which is the basis for the country's political and legal system. Only 39 delegates actually signed the document, however, meaning there were 16 non-signing delegates - individuals who were Constitutional Convention delegates but were not signers of the Constitution.

There were 95 Senators and Representatives in the First Federal Congress. If one combines the total number of signatures on the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution with the non-signing Constitutional Convention delegates, and then adds to that sum the number of congressmen in the First Federal Congress, one obtains a total of 238"slots" or "positions" in these groups which one can classify as "Founding Fathers" of the United States. Because 40 individuals had multiple roles (they signed multiple documents and/or also served in the First Federal Congress), there are 204 unique individuals in this group of "Founding Fathers." These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an "American Founding Father." But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.



Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers# of
Founding
Fathers% of
Founding
Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican8854.7%
Presbyterian3018.6%
Congregationalist2716.8%
Quaker74.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed63.7%
Lutheran53.1%
Catholic31.9%
Huguenot31.9%
Unitarian31.9%
Methodist21.2%
Calvinist10.6%
TOTAL204
NOTES: The table above counts people and not "roles," meaning that individuals have not been counted multiple times if they appear on more than one of the lists above. Roger Sherman, for example, signed all three foundational documents and he was a Representative in the First Federal Congress, but he has been counted only once.

In the table above, some people have been counted more than once because they changed religious affiliation from one denomination to another. Thus, the individual amounts added together total more than 100%. This method is used because it results in accurate numbers for each individual religious affiliation. For example, a total of 7 Quakers are shown in the table above. There were indeed 7 Quakers who were in this group. (However, not all of these were life-long Quakers.) For the most part, very few Founding Fathers switched denomination during their lifetime (less than 8%), so double-counting has occurred only rarely in this table. Quakers, in fact, are more likely to have switched denominations than members of any other religious denomination. Along with taking up arms and supporting military action against the British, a large proportion of Quaker Founding Father officially renounced or were expelled from the ardently pacifistic denomination they had been raised in and joined another denomination (usually Episcopalianism).

Also, note that the proportions shown (percentage of each religious affiliation out of the total group of Founding Fathers) is the proportion out of Founders whose religious affiliation is known. The religious affiliation of a significant number of signers of the Articles of Confederation is not known, but if that information was available, it is expected that such information would not change the overall proportions signifcantly.

 

[rapbeats]

rapbeats is probably one of the worst posters in all KTL. His posts are barley legible -- with his run-on sentences, using periods where commas should go, etc. Half the battle is trying to translate what he's trying to say, nevermind that it's usually irrational and unsupported nonsense.

But no, I don't think being illogical is a bannable offense. Ignore him if you really can't stand it.

I love how, in his most recent attempt not to look foolish, he quote-mines sections of state constitutions that include a reference to a god, as if that proves his original position. Of course he omits that there is no reference to a god/creator in the US constitution (other than the common way of dating used at the time), even though we were all talking about the first amendment. Regardless, that doesn't support the notion that the US was founded with Christian principles ... especially when many of these "Christian principles", when enforced, have been deemed un-constitutional. Of course things like religious litmus tests can sneak though on the state/local level when you have a democracy and 90% of the people believe something! Fortunately, we have a (secular) constitution that prohibit all the things Christians would like to enforce.

No we are not just talking about the 1st admen. we are talking about the basic princples of the bible being the foundation of our nation. that includes EVERYTHING. that includes states which = the country = FEDERAL.

listen no where did i say today they can or will enforce any of the christian-esk stuff. i never once said that. again you guys are trying to have an argument with me that i never had going with you from the jump. i dont sit around smiling that this is some great christian nation founded on christian principles. if i was white, perhaps i would do that. but i know better since my ancestors were slaves to these so called bible thumpers. But i aint going to lie on these slave owning bible thumpers. these dudes were thumpers. and they thumped what thy grew up knowing as morality and ethics into our rules and regs for the USofA. that cant be disputed.

and just because today these things are being less and less enforced and more and more over turned. doesnt mean they were not the foundation. it means we are changing it today. thats all it means.

 

[rapbeats]

oh and one last thing. you dont cry about banning someone that hardly ever creates topics. I respond to topics. if you're tired of hearing me on the subject of religion. stop making those threads. you keep making those threads and watch me come thru

 

[NoMayo15]

No we are not just talking about the 1st admen. we are talking about the basic princples of the bible being the foundation of our nation. that includes EVERYTHING. that includes states which = the country = FEDERAL.

First...wait... you do realize that some of the states you listed didn't even exist until well after the founding of the country, right? If you did, then you'd see how asinine it is to include the constitution of freakin Alaska when talking about the "basic principles of the foundation of our nation". State laws are seperate from the federal law, and when people are talking about "founding of the nation" they're usually talking about the US constitution... the supreme law of the land. You referring to all these individual state constitutions make it seem like you don't understand that.

Second... what are these principles of the bible included in the foundation? What? That you can believe in which ever religion that you'd like? Oh, or is that you can believe in any denomination of Christianity? Exactly where does Christ differentiate between denominations of worship? When is that made a principle of Christianity? Seems to me that god/Jesus would think that there's only one way you should follow ... his way.

Finally, do you understand what it means to "prove" something? All you've done is quoted someone who quote-mined figures that might have said god or creator or Christ ... no context at all, no connection to your position. What you're doing is equivalent to quoting Obama when he has referenced Jesus in the past, and saying "see, he uses scripture to make foreign policy decisions". Your argument does not follow. What you need to do is explicitly state what "Christian principles" you're referring to, and how they're applicable to the founding documents ... AKA the US constitution. You have yet to do this.

listen no where did i say today they can or will enforce any of the christian-esk stuff. i never once said that. again you guys are trying to have an argument with me that i never had going with you from the jump. i dont sit around smiling that this is some great christian nation founded on christian principles. if i was white, perhaps i would do that. but i know better since my ancestors were slaves to these so called bible thumpers. But i aint going to lie on these slave owning bible thumpers. these dudes were thumpers. and they thumped what thy grew up knowing as morality and ethics into our rules and regs for the USofA. that cant be disputed.

Okay so maybe we're getting somewhere. Are you saying the bible endorses slavery?

 

[rapbeats]

First...wait... you do realize that some of the states you listed didn't even exist until well after the founding of the country, right? If you did, then you'd see how asinine it is to include the constitution of freakin Alaska when talking about the "basic principles of the foundation of our nation". State laws are seperate from the federal law, and when people are talking about "founding of the nation" they're usually talking about the US constitution... the supreme law of the land. You referring to all these individual state constitutions make it seem like you don't understand that.

Second... what are these principles of the bible included in the foundation? What? That you can believe in which ever religion that you'd like? Oh, or is that you can believe in any denomination of Christianity? Exactly where does Christ differentiate between denominations of worship? When is that made a principle of Christianity? Seems to me that god/Jesus would think that there's only one way you should follow ... his way.

Finally, do you understand what it means to "prove" something? All you've done is quoted someone who quote-mined figures that might have said god or creator or Christ ... no context at all, no connection to your position. What you're doing is equivalent to quoting Obama when he has referenced Jesus in the past, and saying "see, he uses scripture to make foreign policy decisions". Your argument does not follow. What you need to do is explicitly state what "Christian principles" you're referring to, and how they're applicable to the founding documents ... AKA the US constitution. You have yet to do this.



Okay so maybe we're getting somewhere. Are you saying the bible endorses slavery?

you're incorrect i've already stated what principles. and no i didnt have to do that. there's to much evidence pointing in the direction of bible thumpers using the bible in some form as a base.

and no i dont have to just use the US constitution. you do realize we are bound by federal and state law right? maybe you forgot that. again its called the UNITED.....STATES.

the bible endorses slaves as employees. not slaves as africans were treated when they were taken from africa to the americas/middle east.

 

[NoMayo15]

you're incorrect i've already stated what principles.

When? Quote yourself and post it because it seems like you skipped over that part.

and no i didnt have to do that. there's to much evidence pointing in the direction of bible thumpers using the bible in some form as a base.

Sure, but not during the founding of the nation. Religious people have always tried to invoke their beliefs into law. Some of them happen to concur with the secular morality of the time, and I think this is why you're mistaken.

and no i dont have to just use the US constitution. you do realize we are bound by federal and state law right? maybe you forgot that. again its called the UNITED.....STATES.

In a debate where we're talking about the founding documents for the nation, YES you absolutely have to use the US Constitution. You certainly shouldn't appeal to STATE constitutions that were drafted much later! I saw in that huge quote you had Alabama... Alaska... why would you bring up a constitution that was drafted and went into law in the 1950's to support your case on what the founding fathers thought?! It's like when people say "In God we Trust" is evidence the founding fathers wanted a nation governed by Christian-based laws. It's absolute rubbish to anyone who knows history.

And the last thing you posted stated:

The three major foundational documents of the United States of America are the Declaration of Independence (July 1776), the Articles of Confederation (drafted 1777, ratified 1781) and the Constitution of the United States of America (1789).

These are the MAIN documents the country was founded on according to your own source. So quote-mining any of these men, or any later documents to further your position is simply dishonest because they weren't part of the "founding principles". No one's debating whether or not many of them were Christian ... if you can't understand this, then I can't help you.

the bible endorses slaves as employees. not slaves as africans were treated when they were taken from africa to the americas/middle east.

So yes, it does. What about the African's treatment do you think conflicted with Christian slavery? Beating your slave in condoned in Christian dogma, is it not? As I understand it, as long as the slave doesn't die, the owner has done nothing wrong.

 

[rapbeats]

again, there's no convincing me or you obviously. it is what it is. you have a bunch of staunch christians writing up rules and regs. and you think they dont have a world view that goes thru their bible? of course it does. people trying to lie to themselves to act as if these men could just act as if they never believed in anything and were completely objective when creating the rules, regs, and basis for this country, down to the states as well. pure nonsense. but you will say otherwise. i cant change your mind. and you surely cant change mine on that subject. so lets move on.

 

[NoMayo15]

again, there's no convincing me or you obviously. it is what it is. you have a bunch of staunch christians writing up rules and regs. and you think they dont have a world view that goes thru their bible? of course it does. people trying to lie to themselves to act as if these men could just act as if they never believed in anything and were completely objective when creating the rules, regs, and basis for this country, down to the states as well. pure nonsense. but you will say otherwise. i cant change your mind. and you surely cant change mine on that subject. so lets move on.

Just because Christians are writing something, doesn't mean Christianity is the basis for those particular ideas. That's like saying Isaac Newton's Laws were based on the Bible because he grew up Christian. That's just a RIDICULOUS thing to think. But whatever man, do you.