FAH1223

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https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg02_e_.pdf

Another day, and more obstruction. @FAH1223 OPCW had to pull out afer they encountered small arms fire and an explosion, in the same area Robert Fisk and other journos were walking around yesterday.

Meanwhile the Syrian Government is seizing samples and forcing Doctors on State TV to claim the victims choked on dust.

Syrian medics 'subjected to extreme intimidation' after Douma attack


All the people "just asking questions" have already moved on though, so the details dont matter :francis:

If its chlorine, traces aren't gonna be around for much longer even with tampering. If a nerve agent was used, even with tampering, traces would still be around for a while.

Pretty damning
 

Dr. Acula

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@thatknickfan What do you think would be the best course of action for western governments to take at this point? Taking out chemical facilities seems reasonable to me but beyond that, what do you think can lead to the fastest end of the conflict?
 

thatrapsfan

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@thatknickfan What do you think would be the best course of action for western governments to take at this point? Taking out chemical facilities seems reasonable to me but beyond that, what do you think can lead to the fastest end of the conflict?
I think its a moot point these days because theres no desire/appetite from the States and its partners to play a direct role vis-a-vis the regime.

The best thing for any non-Assad ally to do now, would be to sure Idlib does not become a bloodbath because the ramifications will be far broader than Syria only ( like the initial refugee exoduses that characterized the conflict). Itll be interesting to see how the U.S. and Turkey in particular react to that offensive whenever it does start.
 

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Well, there are many Palestinian militias fighting with the regime against that ISIS pocket. So we'll see.

The majority of Yarmouk was anti-Assad, aside from PFLP-GC and other proxies for the regime. The regime decimated the residents of the camp through a very long blockade after they lost control. The regime killed,jailed, and disappeared hundreds of Palestinians in the camp who supported the rebels. The ISIS offensive was just the final death knell.
 

Birnin Zana

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For the record I don’t think you, or all opponents of military action in general, are Assad apologists. When I used that label I was referring to people who deploy all sorts of conspiracies to obsfucate his role in the war.

I think we may just disagree on what a plausible path forward towards ending the war may be. I don’t think the American role right now is a serious hurdle towards drawing down the main conflict between the regime and its opponents. In my view, the only way the war can end is through some degree of political settlement that involves genuine concessions from the regime, however imperfect like a Taif agreement. I don’t include Assad actually going amongst those concessions, or even being held to any sort of account.

The status quo scorched earth path, guarantees more refugees ahead, more deaths, more destruction of urban infrastructure and no chance any of the new or existing refugees ever return.

Unfortunately, the only way I currently see the war “ending” in any way, shape or form, is in a scenario in which Assad wins the war. Anything else pretty much guarantees the war will continue. So long as Assad has his backers, he isn’t going anywhere. Especially when he continues to regain territory.

Even that scenario is far from ideal and doesn’t guarantee the stability pre-war Syria used to have. As you mentioned, a lot of people will die as he continues to gain ground. Very likely those from the previously besieged towns that were transported to the North by his government will suffer, or worse.

That said, the war would end, or at least begin to wind down.

Concerning Assad making political concessions, I don’t think he’ll make any concessions until he takes control of the country again. He appears dead set on taking back all (or most) of the territory first, before pivoting to a different direction. Whether or not he decides to negotiate afterwards remains to be seen, but hoping he makes concessions while he’s currently gaining ground in the war is a dead end, imho.

I do strongly believe that Assad has to make major adjustments in how he runs Syria, should he win. He would be a fool to do things the way he did prior to the war.

Concerning the U.S., I don’t want them to complicate things any further than it already has. The Obama Administration funded and trained several rebel groups with the intent of fighting ISIS and/or cause regime change. A lot of rebel groups ended up with strong jihadist elements as time went on. The Trump Administration focused on the Kurds in order to fight ISIS and gain leverage against Assad via a large fighting force and controlling oil fields in the East. Ultimately, it drew Turkey in the conflict and resulted in the Kurds being dropped by the U.S.. Said Kurds had to seek aid from Assad, of all people, in their fight against Turkey.

In both cases, the U.S. wasn’t aiming for those end results, but it’s involvement further complicated the situation and possibly made it deadlier.

Furthermore, I don’t see how the US current military involvement in Syria benefits its interest. I see how it benefits its allies (Saudi Arabia and Israel), but the US itself is basically getting itself involved in a lose-lose situation.

The US (and the international community) should, at this point, focus on finding an end to the war via a political solution. There is no military solution it can exploit to make that happen. That ship has sailed years ago.
 
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FAH1223

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Unfortunately, the only way I currently see the war “ending” in any way, shape or form, is in a scenario in which Assad wins the war. Anything else pretty much guarantees the war will continue. So long as Assad has his backers, he isn’t going anywhere. Especially when he continues to regain territory.

Even that scenario is far from ideal and doesn’t guarantee the stability pre-war Syria used to have. As you mentioned, a lot of people will die as he continues to gain ground. Very likely those from the previously besieged towns that were transported to the North by his government will suffer, or worse.

That said, the war would end, or at least begin to wind down.

Concerning Assad making political concessions, I don’t think he’ll make any concessions until he takes control of the country again. He appears dead set on taking back all (or most) of the territory first, before pivoting to a different direction. Whether or not he decides to negotiate afterwards remains to be seen, but hoping he makes concessions while he’s currently gaining ground in the war is a dead end, imho.

I do strongly believe that Assad has to make major adjustments in how he runs Syria, should he win. He would be a fool to do things the way he did prior to the war.

Concerning the U.S., I don’t want them to complicate things any further than it already has. The Obama Administration funded and trained several rebel groups with the intent of fighting ISIS and/or cause regime change. A lot of rebel groups ended up with strong jihadist elements as time went on. The Trump Administration focused on the Kurds in order to fight ISIS and gain leverage against Assad via a large fighting forces and controlling oil fields in the East. Ultimately, it drew Turkey in the conflict and resulted in the Kurds being dropped by the U.S.. Said Kurds had to seek aid from Assad, of all people, in their fight against Turkey.

In both cases, the U.S. weren’t aiming for the end results, but it’s involvement further complicated the situation and possibly made it deadlier.

Furthermore, I don’t see how the US current military involvement in Syria benefits its interest. I see how it benefits its allies (Saudi Arabia and Israel), but the US itself is basically getting itself involved in a lose-lose situation.

The US (and the international community) should, at this point, focus on finding an end to the war via a political solution. There is no military solution it can exploit to make that happen. That shipped has sailed years ago.

Issue with that is... Idlib has so many different rebel factions up there. Turkey has pressure it seems to rid the province of HTS and that's not easy at all. It's proxies there don't seem to be strong enough or organized to defeat them.

Some other commentators say instead of Idlib, Assad has his eyes set on Daraa. But Daraa is in that de-escalation zone and also the biggest resistance to the regime throughout the war.
 

Birnin Zana

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Issue with that is... Idlib has so many different rebel factions up there. Turkey has pressure it seems to rid the province of HTS and that's not easy at all. It's proxies there don't seem to be strong enough or organized to defeat them.

Some other commentators say instead of Idlib, Assad has his eyes set on Daraa. But Daraa is in that de-escalation zone and also the biggest resistance to the regime throughout the war.

The way Assad has been moving, he might throw that de-escalation zone to the bushes and continue on to Daraa anyway. Plus, haven’t Assad’s forces been sporadically shelling Daraa in the past few weeks?

ISIS has a presence near Daraa so I could see Syrian forces going there using ISIS as an excuse. Question is will Israel react, especially with Daraa being close to its border? And will the US jump in to cut off potential Iranian influence / presence?

I think Idlib will be the last rebel stronghold for some of the factors you’ve mentioned. Apparently, some of the jihadist factions are fighting each other:

6-week battle between rival Syrian jihadist groups in Idlib, Aleppo sees massive losses on both sides - details

If there were ever a place for negatiation, Idlib would be it. A siege-style battle over there would be horrific, even compared to recent events.
 

FAH1223

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The way Assad has been moving, he might throw that de-escalation zone to the bushes and continue on to Daraa anyway. Plus, haven’t Assad’s forces been sporadically shelling Daraa in the past few weeks?

ISIS has a presence near Daraa so I could see Syrian forces going there using ISIS as an excuse. Question is will Israel react, especially with Daraa being close to its border? And will the US jump in to cut off potential Iranian influence / presence?

I think Idlib will be the last rebel stronghold for some of the factors you’ve mentioned. Apparently, some of the jihadist factions are fighting each other:

6-week battle between rival Syrian jihadist groups in Idlib, Aleppo sees massive losses on both sides - details

If there were ever a place for negatiation, Idlib would be it. A siege-style battle over there would be horrific, even compared to recent events.

There’s little Israel can or will do that they aren’t doing right now. Don’t see the US doing anything either. In fact the US Embassy in Amman warned the FSA in Daraa from provoking a fight with the regime as there are reports they are starting an offensive vs. SAA

 

Birnin Zana

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There’s little Israel can or will do that they aren’t doing right now. Don’t see the US doing anything either. In fact the US Embassy in Amman warned the FSA in Daraa from provoking a fight with the regime as there are reports they are starting an offensive vs. SAA



Well damn :wtf:.

If it’s like that, then Daraa is def next. Rebels will have little support, if at all.
 
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