Kublai Khan
Banned
Lol ok then compare an average real Turk to an Irishmen. We'll see whose the real CaC
And modern Turks are genetically different from ancient Turks.
NON-AMERICAN YOUNG BLACK MEN WATCH THIS INDIAN MOB BEATING AFRICANS AND ...
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And modern Turks are genetically different from ancient Turks.
GetInTheTruck
Member
I've conceded that these are theories but that's about it. Yes, the South has always been where Dravidian speaking people lived. In ancient hindu texts and the epics you read about how brahmins went south to live in the forests, or they accompanied kings when they led expeditions there. You read about how they considered the people who lived in these areas as uncultured, but their skin color is never brought up as a point of distinction. Your posts in this thread betray the fact that you've never actually sat down and read any of these texts, you're just repeating everything you read without qualifying.
Migration was mainly from north/northwest India to the south. Because of invasions by Greeks, Persians, and other LIGHT SKINNED foreigners, and also the rise of Buddhism, many brahmins went to the south to preserve vedic culture and religion. Many south Indian kings welcomed them and granted them land to live on and influence in the kingdoms itself. This made it easy for them to put down roots there. That's why to this day if you want to observe pure vedic culture you go to the south. Aside from places like Varanasi and Rishikesh, vedic culture and tradition in the north is a shadow of its former self.
Hmmm seems like you're backtracking a little here. Your first post in this thread was quite adamant that the varna system in India is and always has been about skin color (for 4000 years!
), now you've apparently eased your stance a bit in light of the evidence and say well maybe not now, but "originally." are we making progress maybe? I said there were always exceptions, but for the most part no, Brahmins didn't mix....especially when they moved down south among a population they considered to be foreign.
The Buddha was more of a social critic rather than a social reformer. He questioned all the social norms of his day, but him being this big opponent of the caste system is a myth. All of the Buddhas who came after him were either brahmins or kshatriyas, no sudras were admitted into Buddhist monastaries. All of the Buddhist stalwart teachers who were responsible for the development of the faith and its spread across India and beyond were brahmins. Buddhism in India didn't even take off like that until brahmins became interested in its tenets and adopted them. Nagarjuna, Asvaghosa, Dignaga, Nagasena, etc; ALL brahmins breh
Buddhist philosophy is the antithesis of spirituality. They don't even believe in the soul. Please check what you write.
If brahmins were oppressing people like that they wouldn't have to lie and change their names just to get an education in their own country. I only said that because of what this conversation has been about, and also because it's true.
Some Interpreters of the ancient text see skin color being brought up in them....Varna is one instant
No I have read parts but none in its entirety.... Yes I am repeating what I have read from scholarly sources.
What became of these light skinned foreigners?
Hmmm seems like you're backtracking a little here. Your first post in this thread was quite adamant that the varna system in India is and always has been about skin color (for 4000 years!
I was addressing present day skin color prejudice in India and its relationship and history with the varna system......Varna means color covering and appearance. To me those three defining word sums it up to skin color of human beings and its subject matter seals it
the Varna system is still about skin color, but as I have said miscegenation over 300 yrs in US makes it hard to hold to the color based Racial rules as you now have black people who look white and white people who look black.....Now the Indian Color based system is over 4000yrs old and it is not between two different Races but shades of light and dark, there is no way to keep linear track of peoples who differ only in complexion when the begin to mix. So what you are left with is the general spirit of the Varna system a preference for light and fair and a disdain for dark and black.....which I have referred to as vestiges
Nature Knows no color line........exception soon becomes the unwritten rule - the forbidden fruit is its own allure.
The Buddha was more of a social critic rather than a social reformer. He questioned all the social norms of his day, but him being this big opponent of the caste system is a myth. All of the Buddhas who came after him were either brahmins or kshatriyas, no sudras were admitted into Buddhist monastaries. All of the Buddhist stalwart teachers who were responsible for the development of the faith and its spread across India and beyond were brahmins. Buddhism in India didn't even take off like that until brahmins became interested in its tenets and adopted them. Nagarjuna, Asvaghosa, Dignaga, Nagasena, etc; ALL brahmins breh
Buddhist philosophy is the antithesis of spirituality. They don't even believe in the soul. Please check what you write.
You getting it twisted are you saying Buddha supported the caste system?
What Buddhist do is their concern....Yeah Jesus was also another social critic. Most of what Christ taught is not taught or even support by his disciple past and present.....called Christians.
Whether Buddha or Buddhist believe in the soul or spirituality is another issue which I would be glad to discuss with you in another thread.
The sufferings of Brahmins and Kshatriyas sounds like people in the US crying Reverse Racism...
But I am not one to throw out a peoples protestations of being maligned or oppressed so provided me some links of this?
If it is legit I will say so. Bear in mind I do not believe, the cries of some white Americans about reverse racism because they cannot get in some universities that have used various means to address the lack of black students on there campus.....whilst over 70% of those campus remains white.
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GetInTheTruck
Member
You're repeating what you have read from the perspective of Eurocentric racists. Where everything is interpreted through the lens of black vs. white. They do the same thing when they talk about the relationship between Egypt and Nubia. @KidStranglehold has spoken on this a lot on here.
There has been some foreign admixture in the northern parts of India. It's one of the main reasons why so many brahmins headed to south India where vedic culture has been preserved in its purest form to this day.
You can keep repeating the same inaccuracies all you want, it doesn't make it fact. I don't know how many times I've told you that nothing we've been talking about in this thread can be compared to the black/white relationship in this country. They are two different dynamics entirely. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
There is color prejudice all over the world because it's the reality of the times of we live in. Light skin is favored and at a premium. Bleaching of skin is more of a problem in Africa than it is in India.
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That sounds deep and all but unfortunately it's not true in this case.
The Buddha didn't accept or reject the caste system. He acknowledged it as a social reality, though he criticized it like everything else, he was iconoclastic. I'm simply addressing the false narrative that Buddhism arose as this big savior for lower castes who were being oppressed and held back by hindus and "brahminism." The reality is that Buddhism in India exclusively attracted people from the intellectual class ie; brahmins, who were the main ones responsible for developing Buddhist thought. That is the one of the main reasons it didn't succeed in India, it's lofty ideas had no appeal or practical use for the common folk. It was seen as a "fad" that eventually went out of style and so got pushed further east.
False equivalency, again. Brahmins are an extreme minority in India and it's always been that way. Are whites a minority in the united states? Were they ever a minority?
Not true...... here is one of the men I listen to on Hinduism especially the situation of the Sudra/Dalits...definitely not Eurocentric
Now I will not defend his arguments or opinions their are his not mine but he help to inform me on India and Hinduism
Yeah I will keep drawing those relationship until you or other Hindu apologist can present me with convincing facts to the contrary....
To my Understanding prejudice based on skin color was in India before the coming of the Europeans
Most other places only experience skin color prejudice after the advent of Europeans
So says you.....But it is true in almost every case were relations between groups are forbidden - The men of the power group tend to cross the line whilst the women of the powerless are most often raped. Should the opposite happen those involve are most severely punished.
Again your understanding is shallow in my estimation start a thread and I will discuss it with you
I already explain that....So I wont go over it but will state that in the beginning "Not all Europeans were considered white"
Since you know about equivalency here is what you are doing....in this case you are the white woman interviewing the South African Public Official.....
GetInTheTruck
Member
Of course you wont defend his arguments, because they're not very good, and neither is your understanding. I've given you plenty of evidence from religious texts in addition to the majority position of the academic community. It's clear that none of that matters because you will believe whatever you want to believe regardless.
So says the facts. Higher castes interbreeding with sudras and untouchables was not completely unheard of, but it wasn't the norm and defeats the purpose of the varna system in the first place.
You still haven't explained why Vyasa, the most revered Brahmin of them all and the compiler of the Vedas was dark skinned:
Vyasa appears for the first time as the compiler of, and an important character in, theMahabharata. It is said that he was the expansion of the God Vishnu who came in Dwaparayuga to make all the Vedic knowledge available in written form which was available in spoken form at that time. He was the son of Satyavati, daughter of the fisherman Dusharaj,[5] and the wandering sage Parashara (who is credited with being the author of the first Purana: Vishnu Purana). He was born on an island in the river Yamuna.[6] He was born in the Tanahun district in western Nepal. Vyasa was dark-complexioned and hence may be called by the name Krishna (black), and also the name Dwaipayana, meaning 'island-born'.
Vyasa was grandfather to the Kauravas and Pandavas. Their fathers, Dhritarashtra andvPandu, the sons of Vichitravirya by the royal family, were fathered by him. He had a third son, Vidura, by a serving maid Parishrami.
Vyasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nope. If you got a problem with it speak on it here, this thread is pretty much ours now.
I wont defend his arguments because his theories are not in question here.....Mine and Yours are.
Like Buddha you will use that to detract from that which we are discussing resulting in a hijacking of this thread.
No....I have provided you more scholarly, genetic and vedic scriptures to support my argument than you have yours.
Whether the norm or not the fact is that is was probable widespread from time immemorial as Manu himself had to address the issue
Are we using and accepting Wikipedia as a credible scholarly source?
I accept that he was dark skinned.....That doesn't not exclude him from supporting ideas detrimental to black skinned people.
We have millions of people all over the world especial in place like the Maghreb and East Africa, South America and the Caribbean who are from light brown to jet black but considered themselves anything but black or African. For instance in the American Civil War and in the American War for Independence you had blacks fighting on both sides - Which means Some were fighting against there interest as a people. In the case of the American wars these blacks knew they were black and African but did it anyway.
No I will not as it will detract from our main focus here in this thread....open a thread and I will join you there.
Where is your links to the oppression being experience by Brahmins and Kshatriyas in India?
GetInTheTruck
Member
What? He's speaking in terms of the Aryan invasion theory, which is certainly in question.
You've provided nothing but some excerpts from manusmriti, which doesn't mention skin color at all, and obsolete eurocentric interpretation of verses from the Rig Veda, which has already been established to have been compiled by Vysa, a dark skinned brahmin sage
just take the L breh.And you were the one who brought up Buddha, not me.
This is getting redundant man....we've already established that the mixing that was going on in India was taking place at a time before the varna system was put into place, after which it certainly was NOT widespread. If it were that widespread caste wouldn't be as firmly entrenched in Indian society as it is today. Caste is akin to TRIBE, not RACE or SKIN COLOR.
Ok so here is the Oxford companion to world mythology:
The Oxford Companion to World Mythology
"legendary semi divine, dark skinned sage"
Again you keep talking about other countries and societies when we are talking about India.
You claim that hinduism and hindu scriptures promote hatred for dark skin, but the most celebrated sage and brahmin in hindu mythology, the compiler of the Vedas himself, is dark skinned, and unambiguously so. The most powerful God, Vishnu, is dark skinned. His most celebrated incarnation, Krishna, is dark skinned.
Here is a description of Rama, another incarnation of Vishnu from the Ramayana:
"Perhaps that is he, standing there by the river, in human form. If not, he might be the great lover, Indra, the most beautiful of gods; or he might be a mere earthly king come to the Godavari on a pleasure hunt. Or is he Laksmi's lover, that dark-skinned Visnu? Or Chandra, god of the smooth moon? Or fiery Surya, who drives his shining chariot through the sky? Whoever he is, he is beautiful beyond words."
Inside the Drama-House "d0e1455"
What's this? Someone being described as dark and beautiful at the same time?
You don't make sense breh.
Listen, you're getting bodied in this thread, if you don't want to continue I understand, but don't ask me to make no new threads. You are more than welcome to if you want, and you can tag me in it, but I see no reason for it.
I never made the claim that Brahmins are being "oppressed," only that they are targets of unfair criticism, political agendas, and government backed discrimination due to the fact that they are an extreme minority and an easy target in post-colonial India. I wouldn't qualify that as oppression, however.
GetInTheTruck
Member
Another excerpt from Valmiki Ramayana:
"And in that residence of the titan there were women of
incomparable beauty, some dark-skinned, some the colour of
Kancana gold, who, overcome by slumber and worn out with
dalliance, resembled sleeping lotuses."
Full text of "The Ramayana of Valmiki, translated by Hari Prasad Shastri - 3 Volumes Combined - 1709 Pages, with complete Outline"
"And in that residence of the titan there were women of
incomparable beauty, some dark-skinned, some the colour of
Kancana gold, who, overcome by slumber and worn out with
dalliance, resembled sleeping lotuses."
Full text of "The Ramayana of Valmiki, translated by Hari Prasad Shastri - 3 Volumes Combined - 1709 Pages, with complete Outline"
What? He's speaking in terms of the Aryan invasion theory, which is certainly in question.
You've provided nothing but some excerpts from manusmriti, which doesn't mention skin color at all, and obsolete eurocentric interpretation of verses from the Rig Veda, which has already been established to have been compiled by Vysa, a dark skinned brahmin sage
And you were the one who brought up Buddha, not me.
Yes a I brought up Buddha as one of many immanently respected minds that has criticized the Varna/caste system
I have also provided scholarly article from both Western and Indian universities that supports my assertions from CALIFORNIA POLYTHECHNIC STATE UNIVERSITY USA and MSU UNIVERSITY OF MADRAS INDIA.
These individuals were forced to adhere to the social and religious rules the Aryans laid out. In the caste hierarchy, the Mahars were outcasts because they were dark-skinned compared to the lightskinned Aryans. Skin color was an important indicator in determining an individual’s caste (Daniel)
http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=socssp
external appearance' - Varna also means colour. Varna was used to denote groups having different skin coloration. The Aryans were fair skinned and the Dravidians black skinned. Thus, white or fair complexion was considered as belonging to Brahmins(priestly), red to Kshatriyas (princely), yellow to Vaisyas (commercial) and black to Sudras (serving)
ERCES
I also present genetic information by reputed credible respected organization.
Mixing is continuous phenomenon in India it rather a matter of more or less at different times and places.
If As you say Caste is akin to tribe, then what tribe and caste would the light skinned Northern Migrants speakers of a Indo-Aryan language belong to?
Ok so here is the Oxford companion to world mythology:
The Oxford Companion to World Mythology
"legendary semi divine, dark skinned sage"
I am not disputing that he is dark or even black.....what we are disputing is whether or not the varna system was ever based on skin color.
Concomitant to that, it has left a preference for fairness on Indian society today that exist as a vestige that hearkens back to that color based society of olden times.
Again you keep talking about other countries and societies when we are talking about India.
You claim that hinduism and hindu scriptures promote hatred for dark skin, but the most celebrated sage and brahmin in hindu mythology, the compiler of the Vedas himself, is dark skinned, and unambiguously so. The most powerful God, Vishnu, is dark skinned. His most celebrated incarnation, Krishna, is dark skinned.
Here is a description of Rama, another incarnation of Vishnu from the Ramayana:
"Perhaps that is he, standing there by the river, in human form. If not, he might be the great lover, Indra, the most beautiful of gods; or he might be a mere earthly king come to the Godavari on a pleasure hunt. Or is he Laksmi's lover, that dark-skinned Visnu? Or Chandra, god of the smooth moon? Or fiery Surya, who drives his shining chariot through the sky? Whoever he is, he is beautiful beyond words."
Inside the Drama-House "d0e1455"
What's this? Someone being described as dark and beautiful at the same time?
You don't make sense breh.
I talk about other countries and societies for comparison and analysis.
Though Krishna is known to be Black he is more often portrayed as light blue in public spaces, your given reason for this is "Blue looks better in paintings and artwork meant for decorative purposes" other hindu have told me it represents Eternity as in eternal.
Why not just paint him black?
Udit Raj, who, like many Dalits, converted to Buddhism, believes that Hindu religion has reinforced rather than removed racial prejudice in the country, mostly “through the evil of casteism.”
Besides, “only a few of the 33 million gods are dark, the rest are all fair,” he points out.
The story of Ramayana, the most popular Indian epic, he underlines, is “all about the victory of fair-skinned and noble Ram over the black and evil Ravana.
Black is blemish in India
According to the dalit politician I quoted and linked earlier most Hindu Gods are portrayed as light skinned.....is this True or is he Lieing?
Sounds like you are now back pedaling
I only request you start a new thread if you are to change the lines along which we are arguing.... by bring up questions about Buddhism and spirituality.
I brought up Buddha and Ambedkar because they both criticized the Varna system
Stop playing with words if the Brahmins and Kshaytriyas are targets of unfair criticism, political agendas, and government backed discrimination due to the fact that they are an extreme minority that is the definition of being oppressed.....
Links to these occurrence would be appreciated.
I have not been "bodied" in anyway.
Instead I Have acquiesce to use your parameters of credibility to prove my point and done so....
On the other hand what you have done is repeat points over and over that have been address and rebuff as if that is credible proof of your arguments.
GetInTheTruck
Member
I don't know why you capitalize the letters in those titles like that means something special, that paper you linked reads like a high school thesis tbh. Anyway, those are their opinions. What is the opinion of the majority of scholars? If we are going to be honest, we have to take all opinions into consideration and examine them alongside the facts available to us and then come to a reasonable conclusion. When we do that we see that:
-Some Indians are dark, some Indians are fair.
-Some members are of the higher castes are dark, some are fair. Same with the lower castes. There is no "standard."
-Many of the heroes and gods in the sacred texts are described as being exceedingly dark/black and beautiful at the same time.
-Ancient Indian texts on beauty and aesthetics don't speak about skin color, they speak more about features ie; shape of eyes, length of hair, etc;
When we note these things your assertions look more and more weak.
You can keep repeating this all you want, it won't make it true breh.
I'm not convinced that there were any migrants.
Well if you don't dispute that, great. Now you can explain why it would make sense for this dark skinned sage who compiled the Vedas and other sacred texts to teach that dark skin = "bad."
India's current preference for fair skin is no different from the rest of the worlds.
Na, you do that to deflect.
...but he is depicted as dark/black....a lot actually:
Here are some images of Vishnu:
....so what are you talking about? You just seeing what you want to see.
See above. I quoted straight from the Ramayana in my earlier post calling Rama dark skinned and beautiful. Pay attention.
Stop begging me to make another thread. After this post I'm deading this back and forth anyway, shyt is wack and you're just too dense to comprehend common sense. If you want to make a thread calling me out be my guest.
I don't consider that to be oppression, my standards for oppression must be higher than yours.
I don't want to come off as biased so you can just google the reservation education and employment system in India and draw your own conclusions. Affirmative Action in this country is designed to help minorities, the reservation system in India is designed to hold minorities back. This causes members of higher castes who are gifted to go abroad instead of staying in India and using their skills to help the country develop. The majority of the Indian scientists, tech professionals, doctors, etc; in the USA and elsewhere in the western world are brahmins, these are people who could be helping India accelerate it's push into modernity but the incentive for them to stay just isn't there. Brahmins value education with religious fervor, from birth they are taught to worship books and treat teacher (guru) as if they are God himself. India seems to be punishing them for that, its a shame really.
yeah ok breh
GoldTeef
Sarranid Bleu
GetInTheTruck
Member
Ohi almost forgot jagganath, another form of Vishnu:
Look how many people in india go to honor jagganath:
Look how many people in india go to honor jagganath:
Yes and there is a history and a reason why some Indians are dark and others are light.
But it is true...nearly all scholars agree on the meaning of the word Varna means color, appearance and covering
After stating that Caste is "akin to Tribe" and boasting of the Britannica's editors link which stated that a "Northern Migrant linguistic Group" who due to where they lived in relation to the "tropic of Cancer" were naturally lighter..........You have suddenly lost your conviction of Migrants?????
could have something to do with the implications of your own words and the facts when tallied up??
So you are no longer holding to a Northern Migrant Group....?
To me it is a little different because it ante-dates the coming of the European and that it is codified in religious books.
I have answered that questions by showing how blacks in the US have fought against their own interest.,,it is a comparison to demonstrate the obvious.
Being black does not means you will defend or protect the interest of blacks in general....In short skin color is not an indicator of character, intelligence, or mindset.
...but he is depicted as dark/black....a lot actually:
Here are some images of Vishnu:
....so what are you talking about? You just seeing what you want to see.
See above. I quoted straight from the Ramayana in my earlier post calling Rama dark skinned and beautiful. Pay attention.
Never argued that Hindu Gods were or was or is not Black....
Just that they are more often depicted as blue and according to the politician I linked "fair skinned"
Now lets see how intellectual honest you are, put Krishna in your google images search and then count how many blue vs black representations you see...let me know the results????
I did three search on google images Black Krishna and then White Krishna etc and the overwhelming majority of images in the public domain are "blue and or fair skin"......so the Indian politician is right from that simply check
I do not want to make a thread....do you?
if not then it is settled.
All I want to do is discuss Varna/casteism and its historical and present day ramification to colorism/shadeism
Anything that relates to that is fair game.
If Buddha has something to say about varna or casteism, then its relevant. Buddha's opinion on spirituality is not relevant
End of distraction.
If the government has discriminatory policies that unjustly penalizes a group of people.....then that is oppression.
Took your suggestion and on the face of it, it seems to be a system meant to address social wrongs. Here is the definition give for "reservation education and employment system in India"
Reservation System in India: Concept, Arguments and Conclusions!
Defining Reservation:
Reservation in common terms refers to an act of reserving, keeping back or withholding.
Reservation in the Indian Context:
Reservation in Indian law is a form of affirmative action whereby a percentage of seats are reserved in the public sector units, union and state civil services, union and state government departments and in all public and private educational institutions, except in the religious/ linguistic minority educational institutions, for the socially and educationally backward communities and the Scheduled Castes and Tribes who are inadequately represented in these services and institutions. The reservation policy is also extended for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for representation in the Parliament of India.
The Rationale behind the Concept:
The underlying theory for the provision of reservation by the state is the under-representation of the identifiable groups as a legacy of the Indian caste system. After India gained independence, the Constitution of India listed some erstwhile groups as Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST).
The framers of the Constitution believed that, due to the caste system, SCs and the STs were historically oppressed and denied respect and equal opportunity in Indian society and were thus under-represented in nation-building activities.
The Constitution laid down 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/public sector, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively for a period of five years, after which the situation was to be reviewed.
Reservation System in India: Concept, Arguments and Conclusions
Provide your link to support your opinion?
It all good that we each share our opinions on these issues
I look forward to our continued interaction on similar topics
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Ohi almost forgot jagganath, another form of Vishnu:
Look how many people in india go to honor jagganath:
Look how many whites are worshiping this dark skin God and Goddess