'No Excuses... We're Just Pathetic' - Official 2015 Chicago Bulls Offseason Thread

[GoldenGlove]

Niko's confidence was gone come playoff time because Thibs rotations were horrible going into the post season. He continually ran him at the 3, when he excelled at the 4 for most of the 2nd half of the year. You know the big 3 lineup that never worked for Chicago yet, Thibs always played it? Could that have something to do with how bad he looked when he finally got tick in the playoffs?

Is it not the coach's job to give guys a role throughout the year for the sake of consistency come playoff time? Does that not have anything to do with how guys play? You know how Niko was providing scoring for them when Rose/Butler were out and one of the leading scorers in the 4th in their absence, only to see his minutes get stripped away when guys came back?

Same thing with Snell... he contributed when he got minutes, but got shytted on for the likes of Kirk Hinrich.
Same thing with Moore... he contributed when he got minutes, but got shytted on for the likes of Kirk Hinrich.

Is Aaron Brooks not superior to Leandro Barbosa? I mean, he was all year, then Rose comes back and Brooks isn't used (some due to matchups) and Thibs buried him after a while (granted he was awful but there weren't any adjustments made to get him going either). The one game where he looked like he would be able to give the Bulls something was Game 6 against CLE and Thibs yanked him quick after he was playing well, getting loose balls and being very active out there.

I don't know man, Thibs "feel" for how shyt would go in games was awful. He had a bad case of tunnel vision and stubbornness. I know that they didn't have the best bench ever, but they had weapons on the bench, and they were rendered useless in the post season after they contributed all damn year. And I believe a lot of that comes down with how he didn't give guys a consistent role/minutes.

 

[wild100sboy]

If Pau didn't injured, there's a good chance we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. If Pau didn't get injured and Thibs had the Warriors' second unit, there's a 99% chance we wouldn't be having this conversation. You can fine tooth-comb every detail or potential missed opportunity Thibs could've taken in the playoffs, it still wouldn't have made a difference. I don't know how many times I need to say this before it sinks in, NO COACH was winning a title with this team this season. It's as simple as that.

I don't even know why yall gotta bring up Thibs anymore [salting the wound], he's gone. Just move on.

Come on, Thibs. awwwllll in this thread.

 

[cornercommission2k12]

13 mill for noah, 8 mill for taj, 7 mill for pau, 6 mill for niko.

We didn't have the personnel, but we were supposed to

I agree this roster was always flawed and the players we overhyped and convince ourselves to believe they were or would be solid contributors is mostly a pipe dream and fans going more by blind faith then reality. Sorry snell and mcdermott was never going to turn the series and get us past the cavs.

But I rather have seen snell and mcdermott get put on the floor and fail, or etwan moore get put on the floor and fail, then for thibs to continue to run out on the floor what has failed and what was always failing. There was flat out no excuse to keep playing noah and kirk all the minutes he played them. I literally saw cavs players chuckling everytime the line up with those 2 came out on the floor. Watching rose and jimmy lose all their spacing in order to score was all on thibs. The poor ball movement and bad spacing was all on thibs. Teams like Boston was a team who had the spacing offense ran well they just didn't have the personnel. Our offense was horrendous. Our offense looked exactly like the jamal crawford, Joe johnson atl hawks offense from a few years ago and the cavs defense did to us what we did to atl that year.

In the end it's not 1 or the other, it's a combination of both. I been saying that since the start of the season.

 

[jwinfield]

Before everyone

Not that Jim BOYLAN


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/source...jim-boylen-to-be-top-assistant-013405910.html

Chicago Bulls coach Fred Hoiberg is pursuing San Antonio Spurs assistant Jim Boylen to be his top assistant coach, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

The Bulls received permission from the Spurs to speak to Boylen and have interviewed him, league sources said. Chicago has offered Boylen its top assistant coaching position and expressed a willingness to give the title of associate head coach, league sources said.

Boylen is the second assistant on coach Gregg Popovich’s staff behind Ettore Messina. Boylen was recently appointed to an assistant coaching role on the Canadian national team.

 

[GoldenGlove]

I swear some of these reporters ask the dumbest questions

 

[jwinfield]

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Niko's confidence was gone come playoff time because Thibs rotations were horrible going into the post season. He continually ran him at the 3, when he excelled at the 4 for most of the 2nd half of the year. You know the big 3 lineup that never worked for Chicago yet, Thibs always played it? Could that have something to do with how bad he looked when he finally got tick in the playoffs?

Are you just going to push your agenda or are you gonna tell the full story?

He was in the 6th man role [first big off the bench] for most of March (averaging 30mpg) because Taj was out with that ankle injury. Once Taj came back, he was always going to retain his role as 6th man - which meant Niko's minutes would drop and his role would change as Thibs was looking to tighten up his rotation in prep for the playoffs. Not to mention Butler was making his return around the same time too. With Pau, Noah and Gibson taking up the majority of the front court minutes/touches, there wasn't the same opportunity there for Niko to play at the 4, that there was in March.

Is it not the coach's job to give guys a role throughout the year for the sake of consistency come playoff time? Does that not have anything to do with how guys play? You know how Niko was providing scoring for them when Rose/Butler were out and one of the leading scorers in the 4th in their absence, only to see his minutes get stripped away when guys came back?

i) He did give Niko a role throughout the year - but he was a surplus to the frontcourt and only got minutes consistently at the 4 when Taj was out. You'd be the same one criticizing Thibs if he didn't integrate Taj back in the lineup in time for playoffs when he was coming back from his ankle injury in late March/early April.

Was Thibs just suppose to phase Taj out altogether? Or give him minutes that he was accustomed to all throughout the season in prep for the playoffs?

ii) His minutes were stripped because Butler and Taj were coming back from injury - it was a necessity as both needed minutes/touches in order to regain rhythm and familiarity in time for the playoffs.

What was Thibs suppose to do? Give Niko the same minutes and relegate one of Pau/Gibson, just around the corner from the postseason? Wouldn't you be the same one crying in the playoffs if one of Pau/Gibson 'lost their confidence' because their minutes were stripped away from them in April?

Also, let's not act like Niko's role/minutes were stripped right down, prohibiting him from all osmosis.

Same thing with Snell... he contributed when he got minutes, but got shytted on for the likes of Kirk Hinrich.
Same thing with Moore... he contributed when he got minutes, but got shytted on for the likes of Kirk Hinrich.

Moore nor Snell were going to make a notable difference. The displacement would've still had the same outcome.

Is Aaron Brooks not superior to Leandro Barbosa? I mean, he was all year, then Rose comes back and Brooks isn't used (some due to matchups) and Thibs buried him after a while (granted he was awful but there weren't any adjustments made to get him going either). The one game where he looked like he would be able to give the Bulls something was Game 6 against CLE and Thibs yanked him quick after he was playing well, getting loose balls and being very active out there.

Barbosa's minutes in March - 16.7 mpg
Brooks' minutes in March - 31 mpg

Barbosa's minutes in April - 19.5 mpg
Brooks' minutes in April - 28.4 mpg

Clearly you didn't watch Warriors games; you have a hard time differentiating between what roles/minutes they were given from their respective coaches; you've got a warped definition of what "buried" means or you just conveniently brought up Barbosa because he was an easy target - in close proximity to being the least talented player on the Warriors bench.

This Bulls team would have clinched the #1 seed in the East if they had the Warriors' second unit.

I don't know man, Thibs "feel" for how shyt would go in games was awful. He had a bad case of tunnel vision and stubbornness.

You don't think it was partly because he had to be reliant on a strategy that got his this far because the FO didn't give him shyt to work with? You don't think it was because he was never given talented offensive players that he then had to be reliant upon players that could play to the system's strengths? You don't think it was because it was an environment built on distrust and flow of disharmony that he carried on through 'survival instinct' coaching?

I know that they didn't have the best bench ever, but they had weapons on the bench, and they were rendered useless in the post season after they contributed all damn year. And I believe a lot of that comes down with how he didn't give guys a consistent role/minutes.

The only weapons on the bench were Niko and Taj - two players who play the same position - two players that couldn't have a consistent role/minutes at their best position because it was in direct conflict with each other. It wasn't possible to juggle all three's (Pau/Niko/Taj) minutes into the fold of one position without one of them missing out.

 

[cellsius]

The basic point is thibs didn't make adjustments. Like starting boozer over taj vs Washington last year when he gave us absolutely nothing and put us in a hole every game. You can't defend that. Same with playing kirk and noah. Yeah, the bulls weren't as deep as advertised, but those two were d league level players by the end. You would have more success playing moore and nazr.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

The basic point is thibs didn't make adjustments. Like starting boozer over taj vs Washington last year when he gave us absolutely nothing and put us in a hole every game. You can't defend that. Same with playing kirk and noah. Yeah, the bulls weren't as deep as advertised, but those two were d league level players by the end. You would have more success playing moore and nazr.

It's not about defending that. It's about telling you that both paths lead to the same destination (or should I say both paths lead to nowhere). Mentioning that Moore and Nazr would've had more success, is basically saying playing them instead would just be delaying the inevitable.

If you're gonna reiterate a "basic point', it's probably best if you don't use the example of Thibs starting Boozer over Taj against the Wizards.

Even though Boozer started - Taj still played an six extra minutes, and Boozer only started because it was easier to hide his no-defense playing ass in the starting lineup rather than have him come off the bench - the defense was more evenly distributed this way. Not to mention when Taj was brought on, more often than not the Bulls were still only within a few possessions of the Wizards.

 

[El Jefe]

Moore yes .. Nazr

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Moore yes .. Nazr

What about Tony Snell? I think he might be the next superstar wing. He's got Wiggins-like potential.

 

[cornercommission2k12]

The cavs, indiana, waahington, will be moving aggressively to add talent to they rosters

And our chances of being a contender next season is hanging on snell and mcdermott getting really damn good, really damn fast.

So I can't be excited about that.

 

[El Jefe]

Smh ..I dont want hoiberg to bomb .. But @ least if he does this FO is outta here..media have to eat them alive

 

[GoldenGlove]

Are you just going to push your agenda or are you gonna tell the full story?

He was in the 6th man role [first big off the bench] for most of March (averaging 30mpg) because Taj was out with that ankle injury. Once Taj came back, he was always going to retain his role as 6th man - which meant Niko's minutes would drop and his role would change as Thibs was looking to tighten up his rotation in prep for the playoffs. Not to mention Butler was making his return around the same time too. With Pau, Noah and Gibson taking up the majority of the front court minutes/touches, there wasn't the same opportunity there for Niko to play at the 4, that there was in March.

Excuses

It's been documented in articles and broken down on videos that the way Thibs used Niko after Taj came back did not work. Instead of staggering Pau/Taj/Niko/Noah's minutes better, Thibs decided to force feed 3 bigs on the floor with Niko at the 3. It didn't work, and he continued to do it. Taj was the 6th Man, but Niko had proved that he should get consistent minutes at the 4 as well. There are numerous ways he could have played Niko at the 4. I vividly remember him playing Pau for entire quarters, specifically the 1st and 3rd... why not cut down on your 34 year old PF's minutes with Niko after he's showing you that he can contribute for you?

i) He did give Niko a role throughout the year - but he was a surplus to the frontcourt and only got minutes consistently at the 4 when Taj was out. You'd be the same one criticizing Thibs if he didn't integrate Taj back in the lineup in time for playoffs when he was coming back from his ankle injury in late March/early April.

Was Thibs just suppose to phase Taj out altogether? Or give him minutes that he was accustomed to all throughout the season in prep for the playoffs?

ii) His minutes were stripped because Butler and Taj were coming back from injury - it was a necessity as both needed minutes/touches in order to regain rhythm and familiarity in time for the playoffs.

What was Thibs suppose to do? Give Niko the same minutes and relegate one of Pau/Gibson, just around the corner from the postseason? Wouldn't you be the same one crying in the playoffs if one of Pau/Gibson 'lost their confidence' because their minutes were stripped away from them in April?

Also, let's not act like Niko's role/minutes were stripped right down, prohibiting him from all osmosis.

Niko should have gotten more of Pau's minutes. It's really not hard to understand. Don't play Pau for full quarters, trim his minutes down, continue to get Niko burn at the 4, play Taj along side Niko more when you go small. Depending on the matchups, this really wouldn't be difficult to do or integrate. shyt, if Noah isn't giving you anything on a given night, you can insert Taj/Pau to play the 5 and give Niko burn at the 4.

Moore nor Snell were going to make a notable difference. The displacement would've still had the same outcome.

Yeah, but Moore and Snell are both better than Kirk. I say they would make a notable difference because I watched them play better than Kirk all season. Most Bulls fans who watched every game will agree with me.

Barbosa's minutes in March - 16.7 mpg
Brooks' minutes in March - 31 mpg

Barbosa's minutes in April - 19.5 mpg
Brooks' minutes in April - 28.4 mpg

Clearly you didn't watch Warriors games; you have a hard time differentiating between what roles/minutes they were given from their respective coaches; you've got a warped definition of what "buried" means or you just conveniently brought up Barbosa because he was an easy target - in close proximity to being the least talented player on the Warriors bench.

This Bulls team would have clinched the #1 seed in the East if they had the Warriors' second unit.

Brooks is better than Barbosa.
My warped definition of what buried means is that when Thibs got Rose back, he didn't really care about Aaron Brooks contributing anymore.

You don't think it was partly because he had to be reliant on a strategy that got his this far because the FO didn't give him shyt to work with? You don't think it was because he was never given talented offensive players that he then had to be reliant upon players that could play to the system's strengths? You don't think it was because it was an environment built on distrust and flow of disharmony that he carried on through 'survival instinct' coaching?

No. I think he's like that because that's who he is. He was the same way when he got here as he was when they fired him.

The only weapons on the bench were Niko and Taj - two players who play the same position - two players that couldn't have a consistent role/minutes at their best position because it was in direct conflict with each other. It wasn't possible to juggle all three's (Pau/Niko/Taj) minutes into the fold of one position without one of them missing out.

Brooks/Niko/Taj

Pau's minutes could have been trimmed
Noah's minutes definitely could have been trimmed

If a guy isn't producing for you, they can miss out. It happens all the time, it's called a substitution.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Excuses

It's been documented in articles and broken down on videos that the way Thibs used Niko after Taj came back did not work. Instead of staggering Pau/Taj/Niko/Noah's minutes better, Thibs decided to force feed 3 bigs on the floor with Niko at the 3. It didn't work, and he continued to do it. Taj was the 6th Man, but Niko had proved that he should get consistent minutes at the 4 as well. There are numerous ways he could have played Niko at the 4. I vividly remember him playing Pau for entire quarters, specifically the 1st and 3rd... why not cut down on your 34 year old PF's minutes with Niko after he's showing you that he can contribute for you? .

What I stated weren't excuses - that would be you pushing your agenda and me pushing back with reality - the agenda of you making excuses for everybody and every part of the Bulls culture that didn't work out SOLELY due to the domino effect that was Thibs' coaching.

Miss me with this staggering minutes bullshyt; caviling rotations that would've appeased to what you think should've happened as if you wouldn't have had another bullet in your chamber, ready to fire at Thibs. At the end of March/start of April, not only did Thibs need to merge TWO of his most important players back into the rotation who'd just returned from injury (Butler and Gibson) but he also had to put out his best lineups/players in preparation for the playoffs.

This bullshyt about Niko 'losing confidence' because he didn't his usual minutes/touches at the 4, takes a backseat to what Thibs thought was the best approach to preparing this team (starters all building rhythm together) to have them hitting the ground running when the postseason started. These rotations that you claim didn't work out, had the Bulls finishing with a 10-4 record on the home stretch, securing homecourt and getting a favorable matchup in the first round.

You're either competing or you're rebuilding. You can't have the best of both worlds.

Niko should have gotten more of Pau's minutes. It's really not hard to understand. Don't play Pau for full quarters, trim his minutes down, continue to get Niko burn at the 4, play Taj along side Niko more when you go small. Depending on the matchups, this really wouldn't be difficult to do or integrate. shyt, if Noah isn't giving you anything on a given night, you can insert Taj/Pau to play the 5 and give Niko burn at the 4.

It's not hard to understand, that you're deflecting away from what the real problem is/was.

Yeah, but Moore and Snell are both better than Kirk. I say they would make a notable difference because I watched them play better than Kirk all season. Most Bulls fans who watched every game will agree with me.

Where exactly did you see me say that Hinirch was better than Moore/Snell?

Again, you're failing to see the bigger picture here. Like I said the displacement wouldn't make a difference. Both paths lead to nowhere, because neither Moore and Snell were helping this team to get over that hump.

Brooks is better than Barbosa.
My warped definition of what buried means is that when Thibs got Rose back, he didn't really care about Aaron Brooks contributing anymore.

You dug yourself a hole with this. Go back and read what I posted.

No. I think he's like that because that's who he is. He was the same way when he got here as he was when they fired him.

That "bad case of tunnel vision and stubbornness" had the second/third-highest win % in the league, all without his franchise player for over 50% of his tenure in Chicago. If the FO actually gave him proper talent; half these things that you and others condemn him for wouldn't exist. The other half would be overlooked because this team would have gone to a few Finals and possibly won a Championship.

Pau's minutes could have been trimmed
Noah's minutes definitely could have been trimmed

If a guy isn't producing for you, they can miss out. It happens all the time, it's called a substitution.

Why would Thibs trim Pau's minutes when he was not only the Bulls' most effective big man, but also the most productive big man in the East this season - just to work in another 4 who was third in the pecking order?

I don't know if you just want to scapegoat Thibs or you're not looking deep enough for the truth -

All these flaws that he has (whether I agree with them or not), are all compounded by the fact he never was given the right tools to succeed with in the first place (ECF appearance after striking out on first option free agents to franchise player being out for the next three seasons) - these are then magnified beyond any recognizable measure of where the truth really lies as time goes on. It's as if you were to put the rest of the league's coaches in the same position of having to deal with their franchise player being out for x-amount of seasons, with rosters that are only fit to loiter around in the lottery and acquisitions that are only surface-deep fixes. Not only would your awareness to every "flaw" be heightened, but the domino effect would lead to these becoming actually apparent (even if they derived out of a self-fulfilling belief) - until they were an actual problem. Even if they weren't an issue to begin with but were actual means of survival (Thibs' constant effort-based, meticulous prep system winning regular season games, covering up the inadequate makeup of the squad in the postseason), but eventually turned into one - that ultimately led to the death of his position because he and the team ran out of breath after tirelessly trying to stay afloat.

Thibs coached the only way he knew how, and that style/approach got him this far, to a point where 99% of coaches would have been fired a long time ago.