New Orleans makes public schools all charter

Dameon Farrow

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Did the state/city just chose to not rebuild and fund them? Sounds like even more of a self fulfilling prophecy when you put it that way
They consolidated some schools and literally left others to just rot.:hhh: Didn't tear them down or anything. :wow: I'll let current residents speak more on that.

It certainly seems a plan was put into place after Katrina to get to this point....but hey! Maybe they just took advantage of a crisis.:picard:
 
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The buzz word "charter" triggers irrational thoughts due to their inability or desire not to learn why the public school system is failing...which is due to education becoming politicized
public vs charter schools reflects the strictness in accountability, like in public and private businesses

Public schools unlike charter schools have to tolerate teacher and student inappropriate or failing behavior
Public schools unlike charter schools' teachers have more flexibility in their teaching style

So funding a school that is allowed to implement different updated teaching techniques and be able to remove distractions, will always result in positive results
 

Shogun

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Within a certain limited context your statement is somewhat true. I've seen schools with mostly crappy teachers where the kids turned out okay anyways. And I've seen some good teachers work really hard and a lot of their students still "failed". But that's not always true - I've also seen some pretty incredible schools take kids who were headed the wrong way and really turn a lot of their lives around. Not all the kids, not always, they didn't create a "miracle", but there were kids' lives that were definitely changed.

Most of all, though, I believe your observations are an indictment of the very narrow limits and expectations American schools set for their students. The longer I've studied education, the more I've realized that we're doing almost EVERYTHING wrong, and getting the expected results. We prioritize obedience over actual interest, correct behavior over meaningful engagement, achievement over personal growth, and grades over learning. And so we reap the fruits of that - those students who are primed by their families to obey, behavior "correctly", and achieve high test scores and grades are ready to excel in our system, and those who need the school to help them get somewhere....aren't going to get there.

There are a lot better ways. I'd love to see more charter schools, or the public system itself, begin to address them.

The following link is a pretty decent starting text for a lot of worthwhile ideas. It's amazing how obvious, intuitive, and research-based these principles are, and yet how we've been going in the exact opposite direction for decades.

The Schools Our Children Deserve
I read that recently and, I agree with what you said. Though, I do think it's much easier to criticize the education system than it is to present solutions....and more often than not "more creativity!" and "more personalization!" cries come off more as a wish list than an actual prescription for change. I think, ultimately, though, kids who aren't raised to value education, and who live in a society that doesn't value education...are going to have a hard time valuing education. Those success stories you mentioned - I've seen them too, but more often than not they're in the character development arena - not in purely academic growth. I think those successes are more important for those kids, truthfully, but it's not academic growth, and we don't measure schools based on character development (though, maybe we should).

An interesting argument in Wagner's The Global Achievement Gap is that the metric we use to measure the success of schools in other nations (standardized tests) is the same assessment approach that we simultaneously villainize. Which one is it? Do we want schools that embrace creativity and individual growth or rote test taking? I mean, nearly every list I look at has America in 2nd place amongst global tech leaders (behind only Japan)....so, while we can be all doom and gloom about it - what exactly is the standardized-test-ass-kicking in Singapore resulting in? And do we really want to emulate that?

Finland is also brought up a lot - but nearly everything I've read says their successes are reliant almost entirely on a culture which universally embraces and values education; the policies mentioned in your post flow from that, not the other way around. In America we don't value education. We just don't. Every Bill Gates-like story is turned intoa "See? School is a waist of time anyway" tale, celebrities proudly flaunt their success in the face of their bad-guy teachers who had the gall to suggest becoming a celebrity might not be the best goal to have, athletes regularly questioning established knowledge diminishing whatever credibility we might still have, politicians seeming to employ every weapon except intellect to "win"....it's everywhere. America can't do what Finland does - not because of politics, or racism, or whatever....America can't do what Finland does because of Americans.
 
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Icantspell

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I went to a charter school in LA. Better test scores but about the same graduation rate as a traditional public school
 

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edit: And the reason we a tech leader ain't cause we got the best education system, it's cause we brain drain everyone else for their talent. :comeon:

Being a large nation with huge resources, which are then distributed very unequally, we have FAR more money than any other nation to put into our highest-quality private high schools and universities, which get a hugely disproportionate share of the resources even though they're only educating a fraction of a percent of the students. That in turn attracts many of the top minds from other countries to study here, then they often stay afterwards.

So you're combining the huge advantages we give to our most priviledged students with the fact that we're stealing those students from elsewhere. And then you take our resource advantages, which certainly help, and then on top of that we steal even more scientists/engineers/doctors who are trained else where but come here in order to collaborate with the people and resources that we have.

Rather few of the people pushing our tech advantages are graduating from midlevel or below public schools from our own country. We're the Yankees, Lakers, Barcelona, stealing all the top talent from everyone else's systems:francis:.
 
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I read that recently and, I agree with what you said. Though, I do think it's much easier to criticize the education system than it is to present solutions....and more often than not "more creativity!" and "more personalization!" cries come off more as a wish list than an actual prescription for change. I think, ultimately, though, kids who aren't raised to value education, and who live in a society that doesn't value education...are going to have a hard time valuing education. Those success stories you mentioned - I've seen them too, but more often than not they're in the character development arena - not in purely academic growth. I think those successes are more important for those kids, truthfully, but it's not academic growth, and we don't measure schools based on character development (though, maybe we should).

I agree that good inner-city schools often improve character before they improve academic growth. But that's a good first step, right? Even if all you do is get the kid to work hard, value education, and graduate, even though their test scores won't go up, won't their children and their community value education that much more? And then you've set the stage for the next steps that you were talking about. You've began to make that culture change.

I
 
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theworldismine13

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so you are back to googling the God Emperor:mjlol:, that means you are getting desperate

You've previously fought against me when I've given you data stating that black men are the least educated class in this country.

you are just babbling and lying, ive always made the point that illegal immigration is bad for black people becuase black people are the least educated and have the least skills, so its definitely a lie that i fought against a statement saying that

But I want to address your inconsistencies first.

I posted analysis that said increased school funding explains the gains we've seen in chapter schools. You told me I was wrong. But you also said this:

you didnt post any analysis, you posted a link to an article that used an unproven controversial theory that increased funding means better results

i was the one that did the actual analysis and pointed out that even if the theory was true its impossible to separate the impact of funding from the impact of administrative changes, so that leg of the autthor's argument was bogus




Yesterday, you discounted the argument that the displacement of poor AAs increases test scores,

i did not discount anything either way, what i pointed out is that there are stats that show that the number of poor students increased after katrima

admittedly both stats could be right depending on how you define poor students but if you read the article you will see that the argument of less poor students is based on a relative scale to other states, its not an absolute number, which makes the argument shaky and convoluted, it seems like a big reach


yet you previously argued that poor, underrepresented AAs have been ignored by the school system to hide its failures.

dont put words in my mouth


But here's the kicker for me:
.


:jbhmm:

Shouldn't you be comparing the improvement ofsimilar demographics in public schools with the same increase in funding as opposed to the lesser funded schools?
:mjgrin:

im not exactly following your argument but i will say that that you might be missing the point of the story, all the schools are charter schools, there are no public schools, so there are no lesser funded schools to compare to
 

theworldismine13

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I agree that good inner-city schools often improve character before they improve academic growth. But that's a good first step, right? Even if all you do is get the kid to work hard, value education, and graduate, even though their test scores won't go up, won't their children and their community value education that much more? And then you've set the stage for the next steps that you were talking about. You've began to make that culture change.

I said in the previous comment that I appreciate Finland. But honestly, I would want much more radical than even Finland. Finland is a good first step, especially in increasing teacher prestige, training, and autonomy, but some of the policies that Alfie Kohn describes - such as eliminating grades in favor of very specific skill-based and instructive ipsative assessments - will take another step entirely. But they are necessary. I do know some schools internationally that have eliminated grades, and there are probably a few in America, so it can be done.

You are right that many calls for reform are in their infancy and thus rather vague, but in my time in international educator conferences I have gotten the opportunity to see people making meaningful reforms that can be replicated. One reasonable start that can be incorporated into American schools is the "Flipped Classroom" model. It can't automatically make the teacher creative and the students inquisitive, but it does provide MUCH more room for such to happen. I interned at one school that had been doing flipped classroom for decades (without calling it that) and it was a brilliant concept. That was pre-internet, but now the ease of accessible video instruction makes the concept that much easier.

Another very helpful concept is Productive Failure, which I ironically spoke quite a bit about with Manu Kapur while he was working in Singapore (even if there's a lot of things in Singapore that we don't want to emulate, it does sound like they're open to experimentation and change). Kapur's experiments in teaching kids to be willing to tackle open-ended problems that could result in failure reminded me immediately of the legendary Wired article about what Sergio Juárez Correa did in Mexico, which is still such an insane story that I keep waiting for the fraud to be exposed.



I can attest from personal experience that a lot is possible. It's been over a decade since I was in a traditional classroom - during that time I've focused more on mentoring youth and working in non-traditional settings: prison, homeless kids, dropouts, slums, etc. Recently I've focused on just basic literacy - how much more difficult is it for a person to ever educate themselves if they can't even read? And simply by following some pretty simple rules - everything is investigative, all instruction is learner-focused rather than instructor-focused, all evaluation is ipsative - I've seen literally hundreds of people learn to read who had been considered illiterate, often drop-outs who didn't think they could do school at all. And in every one of these cases it was on a purely voluntary basis - I was getting inmates and street kids and dropouts to come of their own free will and learn, because they actually felt good about what they were doing, were using their minds effectively, and saw that they were making process.

It really can be done, if we take time to figure out the right ways to do it and commit to them.

you do realize that you are making an excellent argument for eliminating the public school system and making schools independent charters in which educators can develop their own curriculum and methods

to build you have to destroy
 

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you do realize that you are making an excellent argument for eliminating the public school system and making schools independent charters in which educators can develop their own curriculum and methods

The issue is that we don't have nearly the body of people necessary to run such schools. You speak of them "developing their own curriculum and methods", but even today when only a small % of American schools are charters, you still have only a small % of charters that are actively challenging themselves to teach in innovative new ways (KIPP, for example, is certainly happy to innovate and develop their own positive programs, even if I don't agree with some of their methods). I'd like to see a much higher percentage of charter schools actually demonstrating remarkable innovation before I recommended us suddenly making all the schools charters. Where would you get 100,000 innovators if you haven't even found the 1,000 you need yet?

I've seen a lot of school systems across a lot of the world, and I've still waiting to see anything that evens the playing field as much as public schools. Everywhere I've been, the less public the school system is, the more unbalanced it is and the greater inequalities there are. There's almost a perfect relationship going there.

Like I said earlier, I believe that the perfect balance is a certain body of well-motivated and well-monitored charter schools that are innovating in different ways, and a flexible public school system willing to take on those innovations when they prove positive. In a nation as big as the USA, it's almost impossible for the whole body to be innovative all at once, so you need that division of labor where some are working to make things better and others are working to make sure that no one is left out.
 

dora_da_destroyer

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Enlighten me brehs. I hear charter schools are better than public schools. Why is this bad? For the kids?
Not necessarily. You can have a really innovative curriculum with a highly qualified staff and end up with a winning school or you can have a bunch of folks who don’t know wtf they’re doing end up screwing kids (bad teaching plus not following standard curriculum - out here that can make you ineligible for admission to the public universities). Oakland went through an era of breaking up schools into charter schools in the 00’-early 10’s and they have consolidated a lot of them back, it was abysmal
 

dora_da_destroyer

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these are the facts from that article



if the state average is 34 and NO is at 26, that basically means new orleans students are testing about average, that isnt a sign of failure
Cant believe you’re applauding being below an already low average. On top of that, it’s New Orleans, the metropolitan seat of the state, y’all should be leading vs. the rest of your rural state.

Imagine Berkeley or San Francisco being happy to be slightly below the Cali average when the Cali average is full of bum fukk, ESL ass cities and towns in the rural parts of that state, places that should not be outperforming state economic and cultural capitals. :what:
 

dora_da_destroyer

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charter school performance is mixed bag for the general population ie white kids but all studies have shown that charter school improve the performance for black kids

according to you i have kids in mexico so apparently im a parent
Because they pick “the best” black kids....this exact thing happened in Oakland. Charters schools have the ability to exclude those with learning disabilities, behavioral problem, those too far behind, ESL, etc. Black kids doing better is smoke and mirrors if all you take is the average to above average black students in a district.
But what makes such large-scale expansions problematic, researchers contend, is how charters exacerbate existing inequities through access, retention and recruiting practices that “cream” high-achieving, inexpensive-to-educate children and “push out” students challenged by learning disabilities, limited English skills, academic deficits or chaotic family lives. That leaves already struggling urban district schools burdened with a larger percentage of high-needs kids but a smaller amount of money with which to serve them.
Failing the Test: Oakland’s Charter School Tipping Point
 

theworldismine13

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Cant believe you’re applauding being below an already low average. On top of that, it’s New Orleans, the metropolitan seat of the state, y’all should be leading vs. the rest of your rural state.

Imagine Berkeley or San Francisco being happy to be slightly below the Cali average when the Cali average is full of bum fukk, ESL ass cities and towns in the rural parts of that state, places that should not be outperforming state economic and cultural capitals. :what:

I'm not applauding it, i was putting it in context

The article said that this stat represented a failure, I'm pointing out that slightly below average is not a failure

And the stat is for students that perform at "mastery" level, it's a stat about the top students

And either way for it to be properly analyzed you would have to know what the scores were before Katrina. The author of that article is not thorough at all to the point of being deceitful so I would bet coli cash that those scores were lower before Katrina
 
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dora_da_destroyer

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I'm not applauding it, i was putting it in context

The article said that this stat represented a failure, I'm pointing out that slightly below average is not a failure

And the stat is for students that perform at "mastery" level, it's a stat about the top students

And either way for it to be properly analyzed you would have to know what the scores were before Katrina

The author of that article is not thorough at all to the point of being deceitful so I would be coli cash that those scores were lower before Katrina
Like someone else in this thread already called out, even if they were lower, you won’t acknowledge the other factors that also contributed to the uptick such as increased school funding and demographic shifts. You attribute every gain to charter schools alone
 
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