That's not Kumbi Saleh, that's a picture from like the 1500s of Loango a major city in Kingdom Kongo. I think the second biggest after Mbanza.
Lets Talk African History:"Sahel" West African Civilizations
- Thread starter Bawon Samedi
- Start date
Hell no. They ran parallel to Ghana and even took control of Kumbi Saleh. They serer people.
True.
Weren't Fulani and Wolof among them?
Senegal is a bit farther south of Almoravid control tho.
Did Tekrur and other Sahelian groups contribute mercs and finances to Al-Andalus ?
Yeah the Fulani are everywhere in the Sahel. Def heavy in those areas and of course since the Jolof empire was next to them they had a Wolof presence. I would imagine since they traded with them they would also have mercenaries too.True.
Weren't Fulani and Wolof among them?
Senegal is a bit farther south of Almoravid control tho.
Did Tekrur and other Sahelian groups contribute mercs and finances to Al-Andalus ?
Yeah, I just noticed that too.
Tekrur was not part of the Almoravid Empire but they were bordering it to the south and after the conversion of Islam (starting around 1040) of a few powerful kings and princes of Tekrur, the rulers became close allies of the Almoravids. The Tekruri definitely sent troops to help the almoravids in their conquests in Africa but also in Europe. Labi son of War Diaby himself, king of Tekrour fought alongside Yahya Ibn Omar in the battle of Tebferilla(Mauritania or Malian Sahara) in 1056. Also in the biography of Ibn Tashfin by Al Khalikkan he reports that 4000 Tekruris soldiers participated in the battle of Zallaka(Spain )in 1086 against the army of Alfonso VI. So yes, you can say that the Tekrur took part in the Almoravid effort to conquer Spain.
Yes, they were because in these times most Serer of Tekrour fled Islamization and drought into the regions of Sine-Saloum where they created the two Serer kingdoms , Sine and Saloum in Senegal. They still live there. The Fulani and Soninke from more northern places in Mauritania also moved South for the same reasons. They joined Tekrour where Serer, Fulani, Soninke, Wolof and Mandinka formed a cosmopolite society(remember Tekrour was a vassal state of Ghana and also Mali). The fulani language and culture ended up dominating and all groups adopted fulani and mixed. To this day these people still live in Tekrour (now called Fouta-Toro) and are known as haal-pulaaren which means Pulaar(another word for fulani) speakers instead of just Pulaar because the people form the area are conscious of their mixed origin. They are also called Tukulor which is a french deformation of Tekrour. But we notice that these days more and more refute being called Tukulor and would rather be adressed as Peul because it reminds them of their mixed ancestry compared to fulanis from other regions.
It’s really not far. Just across the Senegal river.
yes, they contributed soldiers see my post 141.
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The Odum of Ala Igbo
Hail Biafra!
Indeed Sokoto was the last great one. The Seven Hausa states also would be very interesting to examin.
This thread got potential. We just started.
Okay, so just read up on "joking relationships" in Mande society from that link I posted earlier.
Apparently, when European scholars came down to study their clan interactions, they were very confused as to why there were clans or classes that had positions ambiguous in the social ladder, and the insults that would be flung around between them.
.
They were further curious as to why other groups like the Fula, Wolof, and Songhai also had this particular cultural quirk, just like the Mande.
In the book, it seems that the function of the insults is that it represents the "joking relationships".
These "joking relationships" are actually masked relationships that the Europeans would not have been able to pick up on.
See, one of the recollections was recounting the fact that the author was baffled as to why 2 young Fula boys would dear to refer to a smith as a "little brother". It seems the author thought the Mande would not tolerate such a thing with their respect for age. Of course, he later realized that the reason said groups do this is because they are quite familiar with each other as allies who depend on each other's products and services. The author saw, for example, smiths and Fula sitting down, insulting each other with legends about one another, all to laughing onlookers.
Many of the clans have different occupations, exchange services, and go out of their way to help each other economically when needed. It's further elaborated that these allied clans must have some dramatic history with each other that would result in such long standing relationships. This history would most likely be one of obligation and debt, and one that would form between families and clans. A bond of familiarity would likely develop naturally, especially since the allies would recognize the need for one another, yet still tease at and use the bond as an outlet for whatever the nature of this or that alliance permits.
The author mentions that there is always some level of ambivalence and ambiguity to these relationships. Mande social grammar reflects much of the same as well. It gets more intense with the simultaneously feared and respected sorcerers among them, but that deserves another post, IMHO.
Anyway, to me, the "joking relationships" looks like they're a result of the vital need for trade in the Sahelian environment and sparsity of the population (greater dependency on trade), and some element of the Dozens.
Hope you all enjoy this little tid-bit.
I'll be off to read some more...
Apparently, when European scholars came down to study their clan interactions, they were very confused as to why there were clans or classes that had positions ambiguous in the social ladder, and the insults that would be flung around between them.
.
They were further curious as to why other groups like the Fula, Wolof, and Songhai also had this particular cultural quirk, just like the Mande.
In the book, it seems that the function of the insults is that it represents the "joking relationships".
These "joking relationships" are actually masked relationships that the Europeans would not have been able to pick up on.
See, one of the recollections was recounting the fact that the author was baffled as to why 2 young Fula boys would dear to refer to a smith as a "little brother". It seems the author thought the Mande would not tolerate such a thing with their respect for age. Of course, he later realized that the reason said groups do this is because they are quite familiar with each other as allies who depend on each other's products and services. The author saw, for example, smiths and Fula sitting down, insulting each other with legends about one another, all to laughing onlookers.
Many of the clans have different occupations, exchange services, and go out of their way to help each other economically when needed. It's further elaborated that these allied clans must have some dramatic history with each other that would result in such long standing relationships. This history would most likely be one of obligation and debt, and one that would form between families and clans. A bond of familiarity would likely develop naturally, especially since the allies would recognize the need for one another, yet still tease at and use the bond as an outlet for whatever the nature of this or that alliance permits.
The author mentions that there is always some level of ambivalence and ambiguity to these relationships. Mande social grammar reflects much of the same as well. It gets more intense with the simultaneously feared and respected sorcerers among them, but that deserves another post, IMHO.
Anyway, to me, the "joking relationships" looks like they're a result of the vital need for trade in the Sahelian environment and sparsity of the population (greater dependency on trade), and some element of the Dozens.
Hope you all enjoy this little tid-bit.
I'll be off to read some more...
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The Kingdom of Mali was the first to the Americas at the urging of Prince Abubakari II
MALI DISCOVERS AMERICA?
"So Abubakar equipped 200 ships filled with men and the same number equipped with gold, water, and provisions, enough to last them for years…they departed and a long time passed before anyone came back. Then one ship returned and we asked the captain what news they brought.
He said, 'Yes, Oh Sultan, we travelled for a long time until there appeared in the open sea a river with a powerful current…the other ships went on ahead, but when they reached that place, they did not return and no more was seen of them…As for me, I went about at once and did not enter the river.'
The Sultan got ready 2,000 ships, 1,000 for himself and the men whom he took with him, and 1,000 for water and provisions. He left me to deputise for him and embarked on the Atlantic Ocean with his men. That was the last we saw of him and all those who were with him.
And so, I became king in my own right."
The Story of Africa| BBC World Service
****************************************************
"...North African sources describe what some consider to be visits to the New World by a Mali fleet in 1311.[61] According to these sources, 400 ships from the Mali Empire discovered a land across the ocean to the West after being swept off course by ocean currents. Only one ship returned, and the captain reported the discovery of a western current to Prince Abubakari II; the off-course Mali fleet of 400 ships is said to have conducted both trade and warfare with the peoples of the western lands. It is claimed that Abubakari II abdicated his throne and set off to explore these western lands. In 1324, the Mali king Mansa Musa is said to have told the Arabic historian Al-Umari that "his predecessors had launched two expeditions from West Africa to discover the limits of the Atlantic Ocean."
According to the abstract of Columbus's log made by Bartolomé de las Casas, the purpose of Columbus’s third voyage was to test both the claims of King John II of Portugal that "canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise" as well as the claims of the native inhabitants of the Caribbean island of Hispaniola that "from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín...from which it was found that of 32 parts: 18 were gold, 6 were silver, and 8 copper."[62][63]
Claims of Pre-Clovis immigration from Africa[edit]
Brazilian researcher Niede Guidon, who led the Pedra Furada sites excavations "... said she believed that humans … might have come not overland from Asia but by boat from Africa".[64]... ."
Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*********************************************************
"...Abu Bakr was the Mansa before he was. During his reign, Abu Bakr sent a fleet of 400 ships to explore the Atlantic Ocean. Only 1 ship returned, but reported that they found a land across the ocean. Mansa Abu Bakr then outfitted a fleet of 2000 ships, which he sailed with personally, that sailed west into the ocean. They were never heard from again.
While there is no record in Mali of the result of that voyage, there is evidence of their arrival in the Americas. There are numerous archaeological sites in North and South America that attest to that Malian presence. Early Spanish explorers and pirates recorded abandoned cities in Brazil that had inscriptions identical to the language of the Mandinka (the people of Mali). More inscriptions in the Mandinka language were found in the United States as well. Near the Mississippi River, many inscriptions exist that recorded their exploration of the Americas. In Arizona, an inscription was found that reads “The elephants are sick and angry. At present there are many sick elephants”. This inscription also includes a rough sketch of an elephant. Elephants are not native to the Americas. They were brought by the Mandinka to the Americas, and the inscriptions are proof of Mansa Abu Bakr’s successful journey over 100 years before Columbus... .
Revisionist History: What is evidence for the claimed earlier Muslim discovery of America pre-Columbus? - Quora
MALI DISCOVERS AMERICA?
"So Abubakar equipped 200 ships filled with men and the same number equipped with gold, water, and provisions, enough to last them for years…they departed and a long time passed before anyone came back. Then one ship returned and we asked the captain what news they brought.
He said, 'Yes, Oh Sultan, we travelled for a long time until there appeared in the open sea a river with a powerful current…the other ships went on ahead, but when they reached that place, they did not return and no more was seen of them…As for me, I went about at once and did not enter the river.'
The Sultan got ready 2,000 ships, 1,000 for himself and the men whom he took with him, and 1,000 for water and provisions. He left me to deputise for him and embarked on the Atlantic Ocean with his men. That was the last we saw of him and all those who were with him.
And so, I became king in my own right."
The Story of Africa| BBC World Service
****************************************************
"...North African sources describe what some consider to be visits to the New World by a Mali fleet in 1311.[61] According to these sources, 400 ships from the Mali Empire discovered a land across the ocean to the West after being swept off course by ocean currents. Only one ship returned, and the captain reported the discovery of a western current to Prince Abubakari II; the off-course Mali fleet of 400 ships is said to have conducted both trade and warfare with the peoples of the western lands. It is claimed that Abubakari II abdicated his throne and set off to explore these western lands. In 1324, the Mali king Mansa Musa is said to have told the Arabic historian Al-Umari that "his predecessors had launched two expeditions from West Africa to discover the limits of the Atlantic Ocean."
According to the abstract of Columbus's log made by Bartolomé de las Casas, the purpose of Columbus’s third voyage was to test both the claims of King John II of Portugal that "canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise" as well as the claims of the native inhabitants of the Caribbean island of Hispaniola that "from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín...from which it was found that of 32 parts: 18 were gold, 6 were silver, and 8 copper."[62][63]
Claims of Pre-Clovis immigration from Africa[edit]
Brazilian researcher Niede Guidon, who led the Pedra Furada sites excavations "... said she believed that humans … might have come not overland from Asia but by boat from Africa".[64]... ."
Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*********************************************************
"...Abu Bakr was the Mansa before he was. During his reign, Abu Bakr sent a fleet of 400 ships to explore the Atlantic Ocean. Only 1 ship returned, but reported that they found a land across the ocean. Mansa Abu Bakr then outfitted a fleet of 2000 ships, which he sailed with personally, that sailed west into the ocean. They were never heard from again.
While there is no record in Mali of the result of that voyage, there is evidence of their arrival in the Americas. There are numerous archaeological sites in North and South America that attest to that Malian presence. Early Spanish explorers and pirates recorded abandoned cities in Brazil that had inscriptions identical to the language of the Mandinka (the people of Mali). More inscriptions in the Mandinka language were found in the United States as well. Near the Mississippi River, many inscriptions exist that recorded their exploration of the Americas. In Arizona, an inscription was found that reads “The elephants are sick and angry. At present there are many sick elephants”. This inscription also includes a rough sketch of an elephant. Elephants are not native to the Americas. They were brought by the Mandinka to the Americas, and the inscriptions are proof of Mansa Abu Bakr’s successful journey over 100 years before Columbus... .
Revisionist History: What is evidence for the claimed earlier Muslim discovery of America pre-Columbus? - Quora
The Odum of Ala Igbo
Hail Biafra!
I'm curious what shipbuilding technology Malians could have used if they wanted to venture across the Atlantic?
I was reading that there are multiple places in Mexico named after the Mandingo/Mandinka
Google Maps
Laguna Mandinga Grande
Laguna Mandinga Grande
The Kingdom of Mali was incredible. Most African Americans are descended directly from the Mande people of the Kingdom of Mali; so they have an incredible ancestors to look back on.