Let's Talk African History: Nigeria

Warthog

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E1b1a7a doesn't speak for all West Africans or Niger-Congo speakers.
I never said it did. It certainly speaks for Bantus and Guinean Forest West African men.

The oldest settlements in West Africa seem to be in the Sahel i.e Mali and Mauritania. Even the oldest pottery.
Maybe so but the Dufuna Canoe shows and proves that Nigeria was very much settled many thousands of years ago.

Everything hints at a North to south migration since the Green Sahara. Even the ancestors of the Sonnike lived more Northern. Not only that but Ounanian culture(which many West Africans descend from) started in the Western Sahara.
If anything from the autosomals and Y-DNA there was a split up of West Africans or Niger-Congo speakers around say Mega Lake Chad. With one group migrating to Nigeria and the staying around the western Green Sahara. Also If West Africans or Niger-Congo speakers migrated around the same time from north to south, why do we find so little Y-DNA E1b1a7a among Sudano-Sahelian men?

Nigeria having the oldest iron working, settlements and West Africans coming from there always had holes in it.;..
It does. Yet Y-DNA E1b1a7a seems very distinct.
 

The Odum of Ala Igbo

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E1b1a7a doesn't speak for all West Africans or Niger-Congo speakers. The oldest settlements in West Africa seem to be in the Sahel i.e Mali and Mauritania. Even the oldest pottery. Everything hints at a North to south migration since the Green Sahara. Even the ancestors of the Sonnike lived more Northern. Not only that but Ounanian culture(which many West Africans descend from) started in the Western Sahara.

Nigeria having the oldest iron working, settlements and West Africans coming from there always had holes in it.;..

North to South migration has two branches. The migration from the ancient Lake Chad to the South (Central/Northern Nigeria) is a Nigerian phenomenon, no?
 

Bawon Samedi

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I never said it did. It certainly speaks for Bantus and Guinean Forest West African men.
But not all West Africans like Mandinkas, Fulanis and others.

Maybe so but the Dufuna Canoe shows and proves that Nigeria was very much settled many thousands of years ago.
8500 to 8000 years is not that old compared to other settlements in West Africa.

Snippet...


A Swiss-led team of archaeologists has discovered pieces of the oldest African pottery in central Mali, dating back to at least 9,400BC.
The sensational find by Geneva University's Eric Huysecom and his international research team, at Ounjougou near the Unesco-listed Bandiagara cliffs, reveals important information about man's interaction with nature.

The age of the sediment in which they were found suggests that the six ceramic fragments - discovered between 2002 and 2005 - are at least 11,400 years old. Most ancient ceramics from the Middle East and the central and eastern Sahara regions are 10,000 and between 9-10,000 years old, respectively.
Swiss archaeologist digs up West Africa's past

This is just one example.

If anything from the autosomals and Y-DNA there was a split up of West Africans or Niger-Congo speakers around say Mega Lake Chad. With one group migrating to Nigeria and the staying around the western Green Sahara. Also If West Africans or Niger-Congo speakers migrated around the same time from north to south, why do we find so little Y-DNA E1b1a7a among Sudano-Sahelian men?
AGAIN... Your argument revolves around E1b1a7z and Coastal West Africans. My thing is that it does NOT speak for West Africans in general. West Africans aren't even monolithic in origins. There were different waves of migrations to West Africa. Some early and some recent. The one into Nigeria could be a different one. E-M2 is one of the oldest E1a clades and if I am not mistaken it originated in the Sahara then migrating. My point is West Africans who carry E1a descending from Nigeria does not speak for all West Africans. DNA and archaeological evidence show a North to South migration. And I mean consistently.

It does. Yet Y-DNA E1b1a7a seems very distinct.

Aye... Once again... E1b1a7a is NOT the ONLY E1a subclade in West Africa.
 

Bawon Samedi

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North to South migration has two branches. The migration from the ancient Lake Chad to the South (Central/Northern Nigeria) is a Nigerian phenomenon, no?
Maybe. Doesn't mean its mutually exclusive for all West Africans. You have West Africans like Mandinka, Fulani, Sonnike, Wolof, Dogon and some others who have different migration origins.
 

Warthog

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But not all West Africans like Mandinkas, Fulanis and others.


8500 to 8000 years is not that old compared to other settlements in West Africa.

Snippet...



Swiss archaeologist digs up West Africa's past

This is just one example.


AGAIN... Your argument revolves around E1b1a7z and Coastal West Africans. My thing is that it does NOT speak for West Africans in general. West Africans aren't even monolithic in origins. There were different waves of migrations to West Africa. Some early and some recent. The one into Nigeria could be a different one. E-M2 is one of the oldest E1a clades and if I am not mistaken it originated in the Sahara then migrating. My point is West Africans who carry E1a descending from Nigeria does not speak for all West Africans. DNA and archaeological evidence show a North to South migration. And I mean consistently.



Aye... Once again... E1b1a7a is NOT the ONLY E1a subclade in West Africa.
I think we're getting our wires crossed a bit. For the most part we agree with each other. As I said I think there was a split between Niger-Congo/Kordofan peoples many thousands. One lot to Nigeria then became Sudano-Guinean autosomally (Haplogroups E-M2, E1b1a7* and E1b1a8a) and the other lot moved in to the western Green Sahara then Became Sudano-Sahelian autosomally (Haplogroups E-M2, E1a* and E1b1a8a).

A couple of corrections:
1. 8-9kya is a long time ago and more than enough time to develop distinct genetics and cultures.
2. Y-DNA E1a is distinct and very much different from E-M2 or E1b1a1*. Y-DNA E1b1a is part of the E1b* branch.
 

Bawon Samedi

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I think we're getting our wires crossed a bit. For the most part we agree with each other. As I said I think there was a split between Niger-Congo/Kordofan peoples many thousands. One lot to Nigeria then became Sudano-Guinean autosomally (Haplogroups E-M2, E1b1a7* and E1b1a8a) and the other lot moved in to the western Green Sahara then Became Sudano-Sahelian autosomally (Haplogroups E-M2, E1a* and E1b1a8a).

A couple of corrections:
1. 8-9kya is a long time ago and more than enough time to develop distinct genetics and cultures.
2. Y-DNA E1a is distinct and very much different from E-M2 or E1b1a1*. Y-DNA E1b1a is part of the E1b* branch.

YES... The bolded is what I am essentially trying to say! shyt was not mutually exclusive. Hell the Bantu migration MAY have not been mutually exclusive either but thats another topic for another time. Anyways, like I said there would have been different waves from different people from different time periods. Much similar with Europe. This is true because West Africans even when the majority are Niger-Congo speakers and the men are E1a carriers are still not monolithic. There was different periods of settlement in West Africa.

Mande people we KNOW are autosomally related to other West Africans and yet they are such a distant branch of Niger-Congo(when it comes to language) that some even consider them their own language group. And Dogon people? Where the heck do they come from. This is why I have an issue with saying Nigeria is the ethnogenesis for the majority of West Africans.
 

Yehuda

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The Yoruba religion of Ile Ifa survived the middle passage and manifested into Santeria in Cuba and Candomble in Brazil. Vodu originated in Benin (not Nigeria, but hey let’s be honest, those are artificial boundaries anyway) and found it’s way to Haiti. These orginal Nigerian/Western African languages were disguised into Catholicism by slave so they continue to maintain there heritages. The end.

Dahomey starting raiding Ketu and selling the captives to Brazil hence the name nação Ketu.

Secrets%2C%20Gossip%2C%20and%20Gods%20The%20Transformation%20of%20Brazilian%20Candombl%C3%A9%2C%20p.%2066.jpg


Kingdoms%20of%20the%20Yoruba%2C%20p.%2058.jpg


The%20Formation%20of%20Candomble%20Vodun%20History%20and%20Ritual%20in%20Brazil%2C%20p.%2031.jpg


The%20Formation%20of%20Candomble%20Vodun%20History%20and%20Ritual%20in%20Brazil%2C%20p.%2032.jpg
 

BigMan

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The Yoruba religion of Ile Ifa survived the middle passage and manifested into Santeria in Cuba and Candomble in Brazil. Vodu originated in Benin (not Nigeria, but hey let’s be honest, those are artificial boundaries anyway) and found it’s way to Haiti. These orginal Nigerian/Western African languages were disguised into Catholicism by slave so they continue to maintain there heritages. The end.
Traces of Yoruba religion also survive outside Cuba/Haiti/brasil
 

Ugo Ogugwa

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I think you are being a bit paranoid. No offense. A comparison is just a comparison. I'm not like the racist cac historians saying Yoruba civilization was INFLUENCED by the Greeks. Just that Yoruba civilizations REMIND ME of the Ancient Greeks. From their gods, artwork and some other things. Shango reminds me of Heracles. Thats NOT TO SAY Yoruba religion/civilization was influenced by the Greeks. Just a thing I do... Nothing more.
Just take the correction and move on.
 

Theorem

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Ironically the idiot Brits that surveyed say the Benin Bronze heads thought that 'Atlanteans' must have made them as well. LOL
:stopitslime::comeon::snoop:

British stupidity has always been in its underestimation of the intelligence of their enemies. Even they will admit this. They did it with the Americans, the Jews, hell they even did it with the Africans too. They were routinely getting finessed when trying to negotiate with tribal leaders and warlords.
 

Warthog

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British stupidity has always been in its underestimation of the intelligence of their enemies. Even they will admit this. They did it with the Americans, the Jews, hell they even did it with the Africans too. They were routinely getting finessed when trying to negotiate with tribal leaders and warlords.
I half agree. However let's be honest, you don't rule the largest empire in history without some form of finesse. The Brits certainly finessed Africans and other non-whites very well.
E.g. Bringing Christianity. Many Nigerians and Ghanaians having British surnames, for which I guarantee that it didn't come from a Horny Brit male having carnal relations with Nigerian and Ghanaian women.
 

Theorem

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I half agree. However let's be honest, you don't rule the largest empire in history without some form of finesse. The Brits certainly finessed Africans and other non-whites very well.
E.g. Bringing Christianity. Many Nigerians and Ghanaians having British surnames, for which I guarantee that it didn't come from a Horny Brit male having carnal relations with Nigerian and Ghanaian women.


British exceptionalism really came through their military strategy and their command of the seas. The British were really maritime masters. As well as their technological advancements. What was interesting was their approach to governance...many Africans WANTED to be governed by the British. Nigerians in South sought British ideas of property rights, common law representative institutions...it was actually the Northerners who thoroughly resisted Western influence and, the arrangement which created the Northern protectorate mandated that the British would have no influence on the customs and beliefs held by Northern Nigerians...hence why Christianity only really proliferated in the South. Remember many of the groups in South were disparate tribes which did not have the far reaching influence. They saw the British as a modernizing force.
 
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Sinnerman

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Jaja of Opobo (full name: Jubo Jubogha; 1821–1891) was a merchant prince and the founder of Opobo city-state in an area that is now the Rivers state of Nigeria. Born in Umuduruoha, Amaigbo, in Igboland, he was sold at about the age of twelve as a slave in Bonny. Jumo Jumofe later took the name "Jaja" for his dealings with the British.

Jaja proved his aptitude for business at an early age, earning his way out of slavery; he was enculturated according to Ijaw (Ibani) rituals and eventually established himself as head of the Anna Pepple House. Under Jaja's leadership, Anna Pepple soon absorbed a number of Bonny's other trade houses until an ongoing dispute with the Manilla Pepple House led by Oko Jumbo forced Jaja to break away as Opobo city-state in 1869.

Opobo soon came to dominate the region's lucrative palm oil trade, and was soon home to fourteen of what were formerly Bonny's eighteen trade houses. Jaja also moved to block the access of British merchants to the interior, giving him an effective monopoly; at times, Opobo even shipped palm oil directly to Liverpool, independent of British middlemen.

At the 1884 Berlin Conference, however, the other European powers designated Opobo as British territory, and the British soon moved to claim it. When Jaja refused to cease taxing British traders, Henry Hamilton Johnston, a British vice consul, invited Jaja to negotiations in 1887. When Jaja arrived, the British arrested him and tried him in Accra in the Gold Coast (now Ghana) then took him to London for some time, where he met Queen Victoria and was her guest in Buckingham Palace. After some other turbulent history, he was exiled to Saint Vincent in the West Indies. Plans were also made for him to be relocated to Barbados.

In 1891, Jaja was granted permission to return to Opobo, but died en route, allegedly poisoned with a cup of tea. Following his exile and death, the power of the Opobo state rapidly declined.
from wiki.

another link

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...RSrDL0Q6AEIVTAL#v=onepage&q=igbo jaja&f=false
 
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