Justice Democrats are struggling: Layoffs and fundraising concerns

Are Justice Dems done?


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Worthless Loser

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It actually hasn't. That is just culture war misinformation. They're taking a few edge cases and trying to apply it everywhere. You just don't hear stories about the trans athletes who lose, because it doesn't serve the agenda.




Is a transgender woman biologically identical to a naturally born woman?
 
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Is a transgender woman biologically identical to a naturally born woman?
I'm not playing this game. On this particular issue, things aren't as simple as you want them to be. This is a complicated matter that can't be reduced down to a binary. The testosterone argument isn't a particularly good one, because that's also been used to discriminate against *some* biological women. Anyway, you made a claim without supporting it and using misinformation about trans athletes dominating sports, and I am trying to show you that that's not the case. You can read it and educate yourself or whatever...
 
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I don't see any Democrats having that as part of their platform to campaign on, but at the same time they refuse to address it out of fear of losing LGBT support and when Republican attack them for it, they are put on defense. If you have to explain, you're losing.
Are you saying you want the government to regulate private sports organizations?
Most of them have their own rules for this kind of thing, so why should the government should step in to over rule them? Why should the government be involved at all?
 

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Are you saying you want the government to regulate private sports organizations?
Most of them have their own rules for this kind of thing, so why should the government should step in to over rule them? Why should the government be involved at all?
What do you say to women who work hard at their craft only to get beat by woman who's not a full woman?

What do you say to that swimmer who had to settle for 2nd place after getting destroyed by a trans woman?

There has to be some type of moderation here. It's simply not fair to female athletes.
 

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What do you say to women who work hard at their craft only to get beat by woman who's not a full woman?

What do you say to that swimmer who had to settle for 2nd place after getting destroyed by a trans woman?

There has to be some type of moderation here. It's simply not fair to female athletes.
Moderation by the government? :why: So you're saying that yes, this is an important enough issue that the government should be involved? You sincerely believe that? Should they legislate kids with prosthetics ability to play sports? Uniforms they're allowed to wear? League rules? How far do you believe the government is supposed to dip into these private sports organizations? Or do you just think the government should be involved in just general bigotry against any types of minorities you don't like?

Also, @Alan Johnson already debunked your bullshyt take with receipts, so why would you repeat it again?
 

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Moderation by the government? :why: So you're saying that yes, this is an important enough issue that the government should be involved? You sincerely believe that? Should they legislate kids with prosthetics ability to play sports? Uniforms they're allowed to wear? League rules? How far do you believe the government is supposed to dip into these private sports organizations? Or do you just think the government should be involved in just general bigotry against any types of minorities you don't like?

Also, @Alan Johnson already debunked your bullshyt take with receipts, so why would you repeat it again?
Because it's true. There is an issue with transgender women being in women sports. They are not full biological women. They still have male chemical makeup in them. To refuse to believe that is simply a case of digging into tribal instinct.

A new study suggests transgender women maintain an athletic advantage over their cisgender peers even after a year on hormone therapy.

The results, published last month in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, could mean the current one-year waiting period for Olympic athletes who are transitioning is inadequate.

“For the Olympic level, the elite level, I'd say probably two years is more realistic than one year,” said the study's lead author, Dr. Timothy Roberts, a pediatrician and the director of the adolescent medicine training program at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri. “At one year, the trans women on average still have an advantage over the cis women," he said, referring to cisgender, or nontransgender, women.

For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, Roberts told NBC News, “they were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women.”

Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers.
 

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Because it's true. There is an issue with transgender women being in women sports. They are not full biological women. They still have male chemical makeup in them. To refuse to believe that is simply a case of digging into tribal instinct.

A new study suggests transgender women maintain an athletic advantage over their cisgender peers even after a year on hormone therapy.

The results, published last month in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, could mean the current one-year waiting period for Olympic athletes who are transitioning is inadequate.

“For the Olympic level, the elite level, I'd say probably two years is more realistic than one year,” said the study's lead author, Dr. Timothy Roberts, a pediatrician and the director of the adolescent medicine training program at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri. “At one year, the trans women on average still have an advantage over the cis women," he said, referring to cisgender, or nontransgender, women.

For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, Roberts told NBC News, “they were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women.”

Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers.
So the Olympic already has their own guidelines? Why do we need the government involved then?

If the Olympics wants to change the guideline to 2 years after hormone therapy as opposed to 1, that's their decision, right? Why do you think the government needs to be involved? Why are you not answering the question? At what point do you believe we need the government to interject themselves into the conversation? How much should the government be involved in private sports organizations, and why?
 

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So the Olympic already has their own guidelines? Why do we need the government involved then?

If the Olympics wants to change the guideline to 2 years after hormone therapy as opposed to 1, that's their decision, right? Why do you think the government needs to be involved? Why are you not answering the question? At what point do you believe we need the government to interject themselves into the conversation? How much should the government be involved in private sports organizations, and why?
That's the olympics. What about non-olympic contests?

Is it ok for trans women to compete with women when they still have male biological makeup and therefore still have an advantage? Yes or no.
 
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Because it's true. There is an issue with transgender women being in women sports. They are not full biological women. They still have male chemical makeup in them. To refuse to believe that is simply a case of digging into tribal instinct.
From your own article:

"The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports."

Active duty service members are required to take a physical readiness test every six to 12 months. Roberts, Smalley and another co-author, Dr. Dale Ahrendt, realized they had access to robust data on service members before, during and after they started hormone replacement treatment.

The three physicians conducted a retrospective review of medical records and fitness tests for 29 transgender men and 46 transgender women from 2013 to 2018. The Air Force’s fitness assessment includes the number of pushups and situps performed in a minute, and the time required to run 1.5 miles.

They also had records on when the subjects started testosterone or estrogen, the type of hormone used and the number of days from when treatment began to when their hormone levels reached the normal adult range for a cisgender person.

For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, Roberts told NBC News, “they were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women.”

Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers.

Joanna Harper, a medical physicist in Portland, Oregon, has conducted research into the effect of testosterone blockers on transgender women runners like herself.

In 2015, she published the first study of transgender women and athletic performance and found that trans women ran at least 10 percent slower after beginning hormones. And, relatively speaking, they did no better against cisgender female runners than they had previously done against cisgender men.

Harper said Roberts’ methodology is solid, but she sees some limitations in the study. In an assessment shared with NBC News, she questioned the lack of data on participants’ individual training habits. She also noted there was no coordination between when subjects started hormones and when they took their annual fitness test.

“The tests were placed into three bins,” Harper said. “One bin of tests that took place in the first year after the start of hormone therapy, one bin of tests that took place between one to two years of hormone therapy, and a third bin that took place between two and two and a half years after the initiation of hormone therapy.”

Lumping the data together could blur out changes that occurred within a 12-month period “and might distort the results notably,” she theorized.

The fact that the trans women were still faster after two years could be due to differences in training intensity, she speculated. But the pushup and situp tests involve muscular strength, technique, muscular endurance and cardiovascular endurance, and “are probably good proxies for success in many team sports.”

As far as recreational and youth athletics:
Proponents of such legislation have already started using Roberts’ research to support their cause, but he insists he’s not on board.

I'm definitely coming out and saying, ‘Hey, this doesn't apply to recreational athletes, doesn't apply to youth athletics,’” he said. “At the recreational level, probably one year is sufficient for most people to be able to compete.

He also underscored the data he compiled was on adults: The average age of the airmen he studied was 26. A transgender woman who transitions before or at puberty, “doesn't really have any advantage” when it comes to athletic performance, he said. “So that young lady should be allowed to compete with all the other people who are born women.”

It’s at the Olympic level where a few percentage points matter, he said, “and we need to do a few more studies to see if that's a permanent effect.”


“There wasn't really a whole lot of data available when the IOC made their guidelines,” Roberts added, using the acronym for the International Olympic Committee. “Now we have a little bit more.”

Harper, who was a consultant on the IOC’s current recommendations, said the real takeaway from Roberts’ study is that transgender women ultimately do reach parity with cis women in athletic tasks. She, however, doesn’t think Roberts’ findings mean sporting organizations need to require two years of testosterone suppression before trans women can compete against cisgender women.

“It’s not necessary for all advantages to be removed,” she said. “All that is necessary is for trans women to perform more like cisgender women than like cisgender men.”

This isn't a political issue. This isn't something that should be regulated by the state, especially the anti-science red party. This should be left up to people who know what they're talking about and the rule-makers serving the various sports organizations - not the reactionaries.

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That's the olympics. What about non-olympic contests?

Is it ok for trans women to compete with women when they still have male biological makeup and therefore still have an advantage? Yes or no.
Personally, I think it depends on the sport, and even then it's up to interpretation. Trans athletes probably have much less advantage in something like golf or archery compared to wrestling or swimming, and so I assume the guidelines for each sport would reflect that. I imagine it varies sport by sport, state by state and organization by organization. "Yes or no" is a false dichotomy and a dumb approach to a nuanced issue.

Really, I believe it is really up to the individual organizations and none of my fukking business, so my personal beliefs don't even factor into my thinking. I honestly don't give a shyt. If they want to allow trans athletes after a set amount of time on hormone therapy, a blanket ban, blanket acceptance, or whatever else, that should be something they are allowed to decide without my, yours, or the government's opinions. Why do I care what guidelines some ultimate frisbee league in bumfukk Arizona set for trans athletes? Why do you? Why should the government?

This conversation is so fukking dumb. You seriously want to talk about fukking children's sports like it's a legitimate political issue. Forget healthcare and the housing crisis, we need to talk about fukking children's sports. Do you know how dumb you guys sound to grown ups?

I answered your question. Now answer mine. Why do you believe the government needs to be involved in private sports organizations, and how much should they regulate beyond trans athletes, in your opinion? Stop dodging and answer.
 

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Personally, I think it depends on the sport, and even then it's up to interpretation. Trans athletes probably have much less advantage in something like golf or archery compared to wrestling or swimming, and so I assume the guidelines for each sport would reflect that. I imagine it varies sport by sport, state by state and organization by organization. "Yes or no" is a false dichotomy and a dumb approach to a nuanced issue.

Really, I believe it is really up to the individual organizations and none of my fukking business, so my personal beliefs don't even factor into my thinking. I honestly don't give a shyt. If they want to allow trans athletes after a set amount of time on hormone therapy, a blanket ban, blanket acceptance, or whatever else, that should be something they are allowed to decide without my, yours, or the government's opinions. Why do I care what guidelines some ultimate frisbee league in bumfukk Arizona set for trans athletes? Why do you? Why should the government?

This conversation is so fukking dumb. You seriously want to talk about fukking children's sports like it's a legitimate political issue. Forget healthcare and the housing crisis, we need to talk about fukking children's sports. Do you know how dumb you guys sound to grown ups?

I answered your question. Now answer mine. Why do you believe the government needs to be involved in private sports organizations, and how much should they regulate beyond trans athletes, in your opinion? Stop dodging and answer.
Republicans make everything political. The more they put this on the Democrats and Democrats don't answer, the more the public views this as a political issue.

Luckily for Dems, there are more important issues to worry about so they don't have to be in the hot seat over this.
 

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Republicans make everything political. The more they put this on the Democrats and Democrats don't answer, the more the public views this as a political issue.

Luckily for Dems, there are more important issues to worry about so they don't have to be in the hot seat over this.
That's your answer? So you're a Republican, and it's just in your nature? Is that what you're trying to tell me?
 
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