Jordan Neely, Tucker Carlson, and ‘rooting for the mob’ as America unravels

[mastermind]

I'm not sure what planet a lot of the people in this thread live on, but in the real world if a dude runs up on you ( or a woman or old woman ) saying they are gonna fukk you up - they gonna get fukked up in that case - first strike

Also, this is cap, or you have not encountered mentally ill unhoused people that much, or you are a Patrick Bateman/Travis Bickle type—which would mean you are mentally ill too (I think the guy that murdered Neely may be Like that). Mentally ill people on the street have said wilder things than Neely said. I remember a white unhoused person yelling racial slurs at anyone he saw. He yelled it at the woman who was behind me. I stopped, looked at her, and asked if she was okay, and shorty said, “I'm fine. My life is better than his." So no, most people would want to fight that mentally ill, out-on-the-street person.

 

[shonuff]

duty to retreat is not necessary if you are not trying to use deadly force. you can put hands on people if they are attacking. the question is what you do with the hands. when a man is behind someone, casually choking him and being assisted by at least one other man, it is hard to argue that neely is the one making the situation dangerous for the entire amount of minutes he is being choked. at a certain point, even if neely started a fight, he becomes incapable of danger while he is solidly in a choke hold with another man on his arms.

as for foreknowledge, it is reasonable to think grown men understand the dangers of choking. his entrance score in the marine corps probably goes toward establishing that.

And again - he is saying g he was holding him

The DA has to.prove that he knows he is choking him

The move is even called a rear neck hold -

For it to be criminally culpable the law would have to prove that he KNOWS his hold could likely result in death or that he acted with the purpose to kill him

and there's PLENTY of examples all over media of this hold being used and not resulting in death

Someone posted that the dude didn't attack him ( we don't know that for sure) and from.the articles about the incident and his statement from his lawyer he was acting to prevent Neely from.attacking another passenger

There are already passe gers who assert that Neely was attacking people...he wasn't just ravung that he was threatening people or actually physically attacking them

Again the premise that he was just asking for food and lamenting his life is way false

I've seen this slide in action he acts like an a$$hole and definitely attacks people

 

[NZA]

And again - he is saying g he was holding him

The DA has to.prove that he knows he is choking him

The move is even called a rear neck hold -

For it to be criminally culpable the law would have to prove that he KNOWS his hold could likely result in death or that he acted with the purpose to kill him

and there's PLENTY of examples all over media of this hold being used and not resulting in death

Someone posted that the dude didn't attack him ( we don't know that for sure) and from.the articles about the incident and his statement from his lawyer he was acting to prevent Neely from.attacking another passenger

There are already passe gers who assert that Neely was attacking people...he wasn't just ravung that he was threatening people or actually physically attacking them

Again the premise that he was just asking for food and lamenting his life is way false

I've seen this slide in action he acts like an a$$hole and definitely attacks people

saying he was "holding him" doesnt negate anything i wrote. theoretically, the prosecutor can use various means to show that he knew, including using "reasonableness" which is actually a component in american law.

and others have described that move as a rear choke...

and you dont have to prove intent to kill to get a conviction on something lesser than murder. there is negligent homicide and manslaughter which involve careless disregard for safety without necessarily intending death.

and as i said earlier, even if he was attacking, the law calls for "reasonable" responses to violence, and at different points in a conflict, roles can change. so it does not matter if he was not simply asking for food, all responses to him have to be "reasonable"

 

[shonuff]

saying he was "holding him" doesnt negate anything i wrote. theoretically, the prosecutor can use various means to show that he knew, including using "reasonableness" which is actually a component in american law.

and others have described that move as a rear choke...

and you dont have to prove intent to kill to get a conviction on something lesser than murder. there is negligent homicide and manslaughter which involve careless disregard for safety without necessarily intending death.

and as i said earlier, even if he was attacking, the law calls for "reasonable" responses to violence, and at different points in a conflict, roles can change. so it does not matter if he was not simply asking for food, all responses to him have to be "reasonable"

Manslaughter and negligent homicide aren't really applicable here- both those charges require that it be proved that the person engaged in an action thats likely to result in death and that they were aware at the time of the incident that their actions could likely result in death or serious bodily harm

That is countered by the numerous videos and even self defense classes where this hold is used and doesn't result in death.his statements already released have said he had no intention of harming Neely only to prevent him from harming others

And again you're saying a response has to be reasonable - if someone moves to attck you and says I am hungry and I don't care if I goto jail or I die- what is it you think.is a reasonable response??


Lastly if you're saying that this guys actions aren't justifiable because there's no way he could know specifically about Neelys past of attacking people you also can't expect him to assume that Neelu is mentally ill .

If someone makes moves to attack me and state they don't care about the consequences its not reasonable to discount their ability to harm me because they are mentally ill

And what more there are plenty of examples of mentally ill people hurting people fatally on the subway - so its absolutely reasonable to think an attack could be imminent and behave accordingly if someone is threatening you

Again there are no witnesses that have said he was only asking for food - that characterization is only from those who weren't there on the train at that time

The passengers and the five 911 calls all state that Neely had or he was about to attack people on the train.

 

[NZA]

Manslaughter and negligent homicide aren't really applicable here- both those charges require that it be proved that the person engaged in an action thats likely to result in death and that they were aware at the time of the incident that their actions could likely result in death or serious bodily harm

That is countered by the numerous videos and even self defense classes where this hold is used and doesn't result in death.his statements already released have said he had no intention of harming Neely only to prevent him from harming others

And again you're saying a response has to be reasonable - if someone moves to attck you and says I am hungry and I don't care if I goto jail or I die- what is it you think.is a reasonable response??


Lastly if you're saying that this guys actions aren't justifiable because there's no way he could know specifically about Neelys past of attacking people you also can't expect him to assume that Neelu is mentally ill .

If someone makes moves to attack me and state they don't care about the consequences its not reasonable to discount their ability to harm me because they are mentally ill

And what more there are plenty of examples of mentally ill people hurting people fatally on the subway - so its absolutely reasonable to think an attack could be imminent and behave accordingly if someone is threatening you

Again there are no witnesses that have said he was only asking for food - that characterization is only from those who weren't there on the train at that time

The passengers and the five 911 calls all state that Neely had or he was about to attack people on the train.

you are just saying anything. im keeping it simple and legally focused

Police seek trespassers on subway tracks in protest of Jordan Neely's death

As police search for trespassers in the protest, the public awaits whether a grand jury will charge Daniel Penny for putting Neely in the deadly chokehold.

abc7ny.com

"Among the considerations - did Neely pose a threat to the safety of other passengers, and did Penny use excessive force when he held Neely in that chokehold, reportedly for about 15 minutes?"

NYC straphanger who choked man to death could face involuntary manslaughter charge: legal experts

Legal experts say the New York City straphanger who was caught on video choking a disturbed homeless man to death Monday could face criminal charges — although what he’s charged with will lik…

nypost.com

"Some guy yelling at you on the subway — you can’t choke him out and kill him."

"Todd Spodek, a criminal defense attorney who has represented several high-profile clients, said District Attorney Alvin Bragg would likely reach for an involuntary manslaughter charge if he sought to bring the case to court."

Involuntary Manslaughter Overview - FindLaw

Involuntary manslaughter involves the accidental killing of another person due to some kind of negligent or reckless act, such as impaired driving. To learn more about this and similar topics, visit FindLaw's Criminal Charges section.

www.findlaw.com

"Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from criminal negligence or recklessness, or from dangerous or impaired driving. It differs from voluntary manslaughter primarily because the victim's death is unintended."

 

[shonuff]

you are just saying anything. im keeping it simple and legally focused

Police seek trespassers on subway tracks in protest of Jordan Neely's death

As police search for trespassers in the protest, the public awaits whether a grand jury will charge Daniel Penny for putting Neely in the deadly chokehold.

abc7ny.com

"Among the considerations - did Neely pose a threat to the safety of other passengers, and did Penny use excessive force when he held Neely in that chokehold, reportedly for about 15 minutes?"

NYC straphanger who choked man to death could face involuntary manslaughter charge: legal experts

Legal experts say the New York City straphanger who was caught on video choking a disturbed homeless man to death Monday could face criminal charges — although what he’s charged with will lik…

nypost.com

"Some guy yelling at you on the subway — you can’t choke him out and kill him."

"Todd Spodek, a criminal defense attorney who has represented several high-profile clients, said District Attorney Alvin Bragg would likely reach for an involuntary manslaughter charge if he sought to bring the case to court."

Involuntary Manslaughter Overview - FindLaw

Involuntary manslaughter involves the accidental killing of another person due to some kind of negligent or reckless act, such as impaired driving. To learn more about this and similar topics, visit FindLaw's Criminal Charges section.

www.findlaw.com

"Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from criminal negligence or recklessness, or from dangerous or impaired driving. It differs from voluntary manslaughter primarily because the victim's death is unintended."

You're ignoring the part where its clearly says it has to be "criminal negligence or recklessness "

You would have to prove that the maneuver was criminal or reckless and that he was negligent in using the maneuver and its results

Again you can go to any dojo any MMA school and see people put other persons in that hold. At no point has any DA sought to prosecute or criminalize the hold he used.

 

[NZA]

You're ignoring the part where its clearly says it has to be "criminal negligence or recklessness "

You would have to prove that the maneuver was criminal or reckless and that he was negligent in using the maneuver and its results

Again you can go to any dojo any MMA school and see people put other persons in that hold. At no point has any DA sought to prosecute or criminalize the hold he used.

breh, practicing NY lawyers said those are the possible charges a DA can present to a grand jury. im not going to go over that anymore

 

[Dirty Mcdrawz]

And again - he is saying g he was holding him

The DA has to.prove that he knows he is choking him

The move is even called a rear neck hold -

For it to be criminally culpable the law would have to prove that he KNOWS his hold could likely result in death or that he acted with the purpose to kill him

and there's PLENTY of examples all over media of this hold being used and not resulting in death

Someone posted that the dude didn't attack him ( we don't know that for sure) and from.the articles about the incident and his statement from his lawyer he was acting to prevent Neely from.attacking another passenger

There are already passe gers who assert that Neely was attacking people...he wasn't just ravung that he was threatening people or actually physically attacking them

Again the premise that he was just asking for food and lamenting his life is way false

I've seen this slide in action he acts like an a$$hole and definitely attacks people

As a former marine we know what a rear naked choke hold can do. In training it’s drilled in you that it can used to kill someone or incapacitate them. I’m not saying he intentionally killed him but he knew 100% that choke hold could kill that man. Anybody trained to use that move knows that. People know that because of Eric Garner. It’s either intentional or negligence. Negligence is still murder.…

Furthermore just because he was an a$$hole doesn’t mean he has to die. Most of the witnesses said he wasn’t doing anything violent at the time. He may have been everything you said but at the time he wasn’t which is the issue. If he was doing being violent at the time of his death then he fafo

You’re trying to play devil’s advocate but your bias is showing. Just come out with it and say he deserve to die and be done with it breh.

 

[shonuff]

As a former marine we know what a rear naked choke hold can do. In training it’s drilled in you that it can used to kill someone or incapacitate them. I’m not saying he intentionally killed him but he knew 100% that choke hold could kill that man. Anybody trained to use that move knows that. People know that because of Eric Garner. It’s either intentional or negligence. Negligence is still murder.…

Furthermore just because he was an a$$hole doesn’t mean he has to die. Most of the witnesses said he wasn’t doing anything violent at the time. He may have been everything you said but at the time he wasn’t which is the issue. If he was doing being violent at the time of his death then he fafo

You’re trying to play devil’s advocate but your bias is showing. Just come out with it and say he deserve to die and be done with it breh.

firstly im not being devils advocate im sorry you see it that way

- im just saying if we are gonna be rational men then lets not be emotional bytches

most of the witnesses who were on that train they arent saying that he wasnt being violent - if you pay attention youll see its generally either people who "knew" him or its someone who wasnt there and is just repeating what they heard and then they go into a whole spiel on "mental illness" and Homelessnes ..excuse me "undomiciled".

the phone calls to 911 definitely say he was being violent - look for yourself - its there . it ranges from he gonna attack someone to he is attacking someone to he is attacking someone with a weapon. there isnt one call that it seems anyone is saying - theres just a "disturbance" or that he is just beggin

and yeh i do have a bias - i already freely admitted i seen dude before - he is an a$$hole - he doesnt just ask for money or food - is is a dude that comes at people all the time - and thats even recently he has been like this for YEARS - he is the same dude if not worse than what he was when he punched some old lady for no reason and broke her eye.

should he be killed? no . but his being killed as a result of how he behaves - one hundred percent i have no pity for him.

i strongly disagree with the idea that the dude someone how pounced on him for no reason ( or little reason ) and didnt care if he killed him or went in with the intention of killing him .

my opinon is that as a regular private citizen his doing what he did is no different than what anyone would do to defend other people who are threatened with a person who is attacking or about to attack someone . he tried to hold a guy that was a threat to others down . There were other people that helped him do that and unfortunately Neely most def FAFO d himself.

The DA NOT having indicted this case by now is proof enough to me that they think they dont have a case. ...they quickly indicted that dominican guy who was attacked by dude over a bag of chips that got himself killed.

then they walked that back

just two or three weeks ago they arrested a African Parking clerk who wound up shooting a guy stealing out of cars that SHOT THE CLERK FIRST ... the clerk took his gun and shot him and killed him.....they arrested the clerk that day.

so yeh im pretty sure that if it remotely looked like this guy Penny did something wrong legally - this DA would have had no problem arresting him in a day let alone a week .

 

[NZA]

 

[NZA]

Man who choked NYC subway rider to death will face manslaughter charge, prosecutors say

Manhattan prosecutors say they will bring criminal charges against a man who used a deadly chokehold on an unruly passenger aboard a New York City subway train. Daniel Penny, a 24-year-old U.S. Marine Corps veteran, will be arrested and face a charge of second degree manslaughter. That could...

apnews.com

"A second-degree manslaughter charge in New York will require the jury to find that a person has engaged in reckless conduct that creates an unjustifiable risk of death, and then consciously disregards that risk. The law also requires that conduct to be a gross deviation from how a reasonable person would act in a similar situation."

 

[Professor Emeritus]

And again - he is saying g he was holding him

The DA has to.prove that he knows he is choking him

The move is even called a rear neck hold -

For it to be criminally culpable the law would have to prove that he KNOWS his hold could likely result in death or that he acted with the purpose to kill him

and there's PLENTY of examples all over media of this hold being used and not resulting in death

It doesn't have to be "likely" to cause death. Just a unjustifiable risk.

For example, there are hundreds of examples of drunk driving safely for every accident. But even though well under 1% of drunk drivers get in an accident, and probably less than 0.01% result in death, it's still considered an unjustifiable risk.

You don't have to prove this hold will kill someone the majority of the time, or even a significant minority of the time. Just that a reasonable person who executes the move knows that it COULD kill someone, and that that risk was not justifiable considering the circumstances.

 

[Anerdyblackguy]

Spoiler alert here’s the video of Neely having his mental episode

Spoiler

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

Daniel Penny’s lawyers crowdfund defense on site used to raise money for Jan. 6 defendants

The site has promoted itself as “The #1 Free Christian Fundraising Site” and has also hosted funds for the Jan. 6 defendants and Kyle Rittenhouse.

gothamist.com

 

[Ish Gibor]

Jordan Neely didn't attack anyone at that moment, that's the point. People can't go around and play the vigilante because you feel like it…

Jordan Neely was mentally ill. People need to look into how mental illness is being dealt with. With proper help by the health care system this could have been prevented. By the logic some them apply, 57.8 million should be killed tomorrow. And yes, most are white.

"Mental illnesses are common in the United States. It is estimated that more than one in five U.S. adults live with a mental illness (57.8 million in 2021). Mental illnesses include many different conditions that vary in degree of severity, ranging from mild to moderate to severe."

Mental Illness

An overview of statistics for mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are common in the United States. One in six U.S. adults lives with a mental illness (43.4 million in 2015). Mental illnesses include many different conditions that vary in degree of severity, ranging from mild to moderate to severe.

www.nimh.nih.gov

(The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH))

“In reality, Neely was struggling to stay afloat. After his mother was murdered by his stepfather in 2007, when Neely was 14, he developed severe depression and PTSD, and also had autism and schizophrenia, according to relatives. He bounced between homes before ending up in the foster care system. In 2013, the year he started riding the train with Espinal, he also began crossing paths with police – telling them he was hearing voices.”

‘It’s a failure of the system’: before Jordan Neely was killed, he was discarded | Jordan Neely | The Guardian

The young New Yorker, who lived with severe mental illness, was known to hospitals, police and social services. Why did the city fail him?

amp.theguardian.com