Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

[stro]

I like NOAH shows but they feel like an eternal funeral for Misawa most of the times. Extremely quiet crowds while the wrestlers are chopping themselves to death.

I was taking AJPW for dead a couple years ago but now they have had some sort of resurgence. But reaching its previous level? Nah.

Basically. They're never, ever going to recover from one of the top 5 stars ever in puro dying in the ring years past his prime and after he wanted to retire because he was the only thing keeping the company going. NOAH probably should have rebranded after that tbh.

 

[Jmare007]

fukk a rebrand, they should've folded years ago. They fukked up royally when they were at their peak by being morons with their booking, then every veteran they depended upon broke down or died, they lost their national TV deal and it was a wrap for them.

Damn why are they doing such a big venue?

They are gonna use a configuration were the capacity they get will look good. I do wonder what is their expectation in terms of attendance though, maybe 5 to 6k?

 

[FooFighters]

Basically. They're never, ever going to recover from one of the top 5 stars ever in puro dying in the ring years past his prime and after he wanted to retire because he was the only thing keeping the company going. NOAH probably should have rebranded after that tbh.

They tried pushing new stars and the fans didn't take to them

 

[Scottie Drippin]

They tried pushing new stars and the fans didn't take to them

Did they try to build new stars? Technically, yes. At their peak they had two attempts at making new dudes but by the time a clearly shot Misawa put over Morishima the decline had already begun.

But, “try to build new stars” insinuates they put actual effort and thought into it, and tried to build new stars in a way that made it seem as though they wanted them to actually succeed, and that’s just not the case.

Rikio ending Kobashi’s reign is one of the biggest errors in the history of the wrestling business. He was a perfectly okay wrestler that had his career ruined with a push he never had any hope of living up to.

After that miss, their next look was Marufuji as Morishima was still just too green, and his run to the title actually felt good, had momentum and logic to it, and the title change is an all-time NOAH moment.

So what do they do? Have his only defense in the country against KENTA in what is a HOT matchup, and INTENTIONALLY put a weak card underneath it to “test” them out as draws at the top, FULL WELL KNOWING the concept of them at the top was going to be a questionable sell to the traditionalists. Maru and KENTA have arguably the greatest match in the company’s history…then a month later it’s old Misawa taking the belt off of him because the intentionally weak card they put out doesn’t do good numbers. Legs cut out from under Maru and his stock as a potential top guy poisoned forever. They’re 2/2 now.

And we’re not just talking about two missteps. We are talking about two dumb decisions of such epic scale and execution that two “young” (Rikio was already in his mid 30’s) guys for the future are damaged forever.

While this is happening, Kobashi gets cancer, and it’s basically a wrap from there on. Morishima’s title win coming a year too late, Sugi’s move to heavyweight happening years too late, turning to Misawa and Taue instead of a still prime Akiyama for a long run etc just pile onto the fire, but the only potential light in the tunnel of the dumb shyt they were doing was Go breaking his losing streak and Kobashi passing the torch to him with a clean job, but instead Go doesn’t get the belt until after Misawa’s death a full three years after tanking Maru’s potential. And of course, the Maru debacle had KENTA guilty by association, so he never got a chance, either.

So yeah, NOAH did this to itself. It’s crazy to think the guys who were on the receiving end of the grandest generational push of all time had all the pieces available to do it themselves but completely failed at it.

 

[LinusCaldwell]

I've been getting asked about New Japan and how come I don't cover it on my site. People are telling me it's getting a lot of buzz and it's entertaining. Anybody would like to write reviews for my site please let me know. It would be really appreciated.

 

[MightyHealthy]

Did they try to build new stars? Technically, yes. At their peak they had two attempts at making new dudes but by the time a clearly shot Misawa put over Morishima the decline had already begun.

But, “try to build new stars” insinuates they put actual effort and thought into it, and tried to build new stars in a way that made it seem as though they wanted them to actually succeed, and that’s just not the case.

Rikio ending Kobashi’s reign is one of the biggest errors in the history of the wrestling business. He was a perfectly okay wrestler that had his career ruined with a push he never had any hope of living up to.

After that miss, their next look was Marufuji as Morishima was still just too green, and his run to the title actually felt good, had momentum and logic to it, and the title change is an all-time NOAH moment.

So what do they do? Have his only defense in the country against KENTA in what is a HOT matchup, and INTENTIONALLY put a weak card underneath it to “test” them out as draws at the top, FULL WELL KNOWING the concept of them at the top was going to be a questionable sell to the traditionalists. Maru and KENTA have arguably the greatest match in the company’s history…then a month later it’s old Misawa taking the belt off of him because the intentionally weak card they put out doesn’t do good numbers. Legs cut out from under Maru and his stock as a potential top guy poisoned forever. They’re 2/2 now.

And we’re not just talking about two missteps. We are talking about two dumb decisions of such epic scale and execution that two “young” (Rikio was already in his mid 30’s) guys for the future are damaged forever.

While this is happening, Kobashi gets cancer, and it’s basically a wrap from there on. Morishima’s title win coming a year too late, Sugi’s move to heavyweight happening years too late, turning to Misawa and Taue instead of a still prime Akiyama for a long run etc just pile onto the fire, but the only potential light in the tunnel of the dumb shyt they were doing was Go breaking his losing streak and Kobashi passing the torch to him with a clean job, but instead Go doesn’t get the belt until after Misawa’s death a full three years after tanking Maru’s potential. And of course, the Maru debacle had KENTA guilty by association, so he never got a chance, either.

So yeah, NOAH did this to itself. It’s crazy to think the guys who were on the receiving end of the grandest generational push of all time had all the pieces available to do it themselves but completely failed at it.

Thanks for typing this out, I feel like I have a better grasp of the history of NOAH with the knowledge you dropped.

I always wondered why Marufuji is so good, but gets the response he does at times. This explains it.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Thanks for typing this out, I feel like I have a better grasp of the history of NOAH with the knowledge you dropped.

I always wondered why Marufuji is so good, but gets the response he does at times. This explains it.

Somewhat, but people were still geeked on Marufuji until after Misawa died and he lost his goddamn mind. Maru really delivered at a level he hadn’t in quite some time in his NJPW run last year. Between his IWGP Jr title run in 2010 I think and this most recent run is about 7 years of him re-inventing wheel of struggle epics. 30-40 minutes of limbwork that goes nowhere, superkick spam that’d make the Young Buck’s blush, kicking out of every move under the sun, and inventing one of the worst moves outside of a backyard wrestling match.

But yeah, the failure with him at his peak in '06 was a death knell for him as a draw for NOAH (and KENTA by proxy).

 

[MightyHealthy]

Somewhat, but people were still geeked on Marufuji until after Misawa died and he lost his goddamn mind. Maru really delivered at a level he hadn’t in quite some time in his NJPW run last year. Between his IWGP Jr title run in 2010 I think and this most recent run is about 7 years of him re-inventing wheel of struggle epics. 30-40 minutes of limbwork that goes nowhere, superkick spam that’d make the Young Buck’s blush, kicking out of every move under the sun, and inventing one of the worst moves outside of a backyard wrestling match.

I just know Maru from G1, where he definitely excelled...damn tho

What do you think of Nakajima, and his prospects of a legacy, in NOAH?

 

[stro]

Yeah, Marufuji was the height of fukking stupid spot nonsense for years and years. It wasn't until fairly recently that he changed his style to what you saw last year in NJPW, and it's because his body has broken down to the point where he can't really do those nonstop spot fests anymore. I'm pretty sure there was a match where the FIRST MOVE was a Van Terminator.

 

[Jmare007]

Did they try to build new stars? Technically, yes. At their peak they had two attempts at making new dudes but by the time a clearly shot Misawa put over Morishima the decline had already begun.

But, “try to build new stars” insinuates they put actual effort and thought into it, and tried to build new stars in a way that made it seem as though they wanted them to actually succeed, and that’s just not the case.

Rikio ending Kobashi’s reign is one of the biggest errors in the history of the wrestling business. He was a perfectly okay wrestler that had his career ruined with a push he never had any hope of living up to.

After that miss, their next look was Marufuji as Morishima was still just too green, and his run to the title actually felt good, had momentum and logic to it, and the title change is an all-time NOAH moment.

So what do they do? Have his only defense in the country against KENTA in what is a HOT matchup, and INTENTIONALLY put a weak card underneath it to “test” them out as draws at the top, FULL WELL KNOWING the concept of them at the top was going to be a questionable sell to the traditionalists. Maru and KENTA have arguably the greatest match in the company’s history…then a month later it’s old Misawa taking the belt off of him because the intentionally weak card they put out doesn’t do good numbers. Legs cut out from under Maru and his stock as a potential top guy poisoned forever. They’re 2/2 now.

And we’re not just talking about two missteps. We are talking about two dumb decisions of such epic scale and execution that two “young” (Rikio was already in his mid 30’s) guys for the future are damaged forever.

While this is happening, Kobashi gets cancer, and it’s basically a wrap from there on. Morishima’s title win coming a year too late, Sugi’s move to heavyweight happening years too late, turning to Misawa and Taue instead of a still prime Akiyama for a long run etc just pile onto the fire, but the only potential light in the tunnel of the dumb shyt they were doing was Go breaking his losing streak and Kobashi passing the torch to him with a clean job, but instead Go doesn’t get the belt until after Misawa’s death a full three years after tanking Maru’s potential. And of course, the Maru debacle had KENTA guilty by association, so he never got a chance, either.

So yeah, NOAH did this to itself. It’s crazy to think the guys who were on the receiving end of the grandest generational push of all time had all the pieces available to do it themselves but completely failed at it.

The annual "Why NOAH fukked up" post in this thread I'm glad I wasn't they one doing it this time though. I still disagree with the notion that going with Maru in 05' was a good idea. He needed way too much help from booking and perception from fans to succeed as the Ace during those times. Now, NOAH fukked him over instantly and that buried him as a heavyweight threat but I don't think NOAH's fanbase was ready during those times to accept an "openweight" champion. I feel we've had this discussion for like 5 years now

The Go situation was so weird. They were probably fukked regardless when his push started but they couldn't even book his story right. Kensuke Sasaki was the only guy who could put him over and the motherfukker refused to do it time and time again

I just know Maru from G1, where he definitely excelled...damn tho

What do you think of Nakajima, and his prospects of a legacy, in NOAH?

There's no legacy to be had in a company like NOAH. He's in the same spot Miyahara is with All Japan. No matter what they do it's gonna be in the grand scheme of things.

Now, Nakajima had the tools to be a Shibata/Okada hybrid but he never had the structure around him to succeed. At this point the most they can aspire to be is Daisuke Sekimoto or Shinjiro Ohtani, respected and protected freelancers that are over with hardcore audiences.

I'd love to watch Naka in New Japan, but that wont be happening any time soon.

He was kinda lucky he wrestles in the "openweight" era in puro though, I'm not sure he would've been accepted as a legit threat at heavyweight had he debuted 10 years before he did.

 

[Apex]

The annual "Why NOAH fukked up" post in this thread I'm glad I wasn't they one doing it this time though. I still disagree with the notion that going with Maru in 05' was a good idea. He needed way too much help from booking and perception from fans to succeed as the Ace during those times. Now, NOAH fukked him over instantly and that buried him as a heavyweight threat but I don't think NOAH's fanbase was ready during those times to accept an "openweight" champion. I feel we've had this discussion for like 5 years now

The Go situation was so weird. They were probably fukked regardless when his push started but they couldn't even book his story right. Kensuke Sasaki was the only guy who could put him over and the motherfukker refused to do it time and time again



There's no legacy to be had in a company like NOAH. He's in the same spot Miyahara is with All Japan. No matter what they do it's gonna be in the grand scheme of things.

Now, Nakajima had the tools to be a Shibata/Okada hybrid but he never had the structure around him to succeed. At this point the most they can aspire to be is Daisuke Sekimoto or Shinjiro Ohtani, respected and protected freelancers that are over with hardcore audiences.

I'd love to watch Naka in New Japan, but that wont be happening any time soon.

He was kinda lucky he wrestles in the "openweight" era in puro though, I'm not sure he would've been accepted as a legit threat at heavyweight had he debuted 10 years before he did.

They can always go to NJPW after solidifying themselves like Omega did.

 

[Jmare007]

They can always go to NJPW after solidifying themselves like Omega did.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

They can always go to NJPW after solidifying themselves like Omega did.

Kenny was a proven draw in DDT, and unique. He and Kota were the two biggest stars in Japan under 40 who weren't already in the company. NJPW didn't like, give them a chance to come prove themselves or something. They opened up that checkbook and paid them serious bread to come over, and even then they bent over backwards for Kota and let him still work basically a full DDT schedule. Kota/Kenny in NJ is almost a AJ in WWE situation. They were already stars.

Nakajima, barring a late career metamorphosis even grander than Shinsuke's, will never have that. Remember Go was a free agent damn near begging for a NJPW look and they didn't give a shyt. They have plenty of guys who can flat out wrestle, aside from people with star quality they'll stick to building in house. Only chance those dudes have of a NJ roster spot is if they're mans with someone that has pull, like Naito bringing Sanada in.

 

[Jmare007]

Kenny was a proven draw in DDT, and unique. He and Kota were the two biggest stars in Japan under 40 who weren't already in the company. NJPW didn't like, give them a chance to come prove themselves or something. They opened up that checkbook and paid them serious bread to come over, and even then they bent over backwards for Kota and let him still work basically a full DDT schedule. Kota/Kenny in NJ is almost a AJ in WWE situation. They were already stars.

Nakajima, barring a late career metamorphosis even grander than Shinsuke's, will never have that. Remember Go was a free agent damn near begging for a NJPW look and they didn't give a shyt. They have plenty of guys who can flat out wrestle, aside from people with star quality they'll stick to building in house. Only chance those dudes have of a NJ roster spot is if they're mans with someone that has pull, like Naito bringing Sanada in.

That's why I'm never going to see Daisuke and Yuji wrecking shyt up in a New Japan ring and it's sad because they always increase business when they invade/freelance, but they aren't big draws and Sekimoto has deathmatch stains so it doesn't matter

 

[Apex]

Kenny was a proven draw in DDT, and unique. He and Kota were the two biggest stars in Japan under 40 who weren't already in the company. NJPW didn't like, give them a chance to come prove themselves or something. They opened up that checkbook and paid them serious bread to come over, and even then they bent over backwards for Kota and let him still work basically a full DDT schedule. Kota/Kenny in NJ is almost a AJ in WWE situation. They were already stars.

Nakajima, barring a late career metamorphosis even grander than Shinsuke's, will never have that. Remember Go was a free agent damn near begging for a NJPW look and they didn't give a shyt. They have plenty of guys who can flat out wrestle, aside from people with star quality they'll stick to building in house. Only chance those dudes have of a NJ roster spot is if they're mans with someone that has pull, like Naito bringing Sanada in.

How did a guy like Juice Robinson get a NJPW contract then? He's not a big star.