Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

Beautiful Bobby Eatin

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What. In. The actual. fukk. Is. Watanabe?

He looks like Goto on a coke and hookers bender :wtf:

ha, damn...

Yo, what's a good site for the new New Japan TV episodes/events?

:blessed:I finally got to see some of Wrestle Kingdom 9.

:banderas:Kenny Omega. It's always good to see long-time indy guys finally come up.

:ohlawd: Alex Kozlov.
 
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Jmare007

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Aight brehs I need y'all help. The Greatest Wrestler Ever poll has an official deadline (Wrestlemania 32 weekend) and I decided to make a list of guys that will most likely make my ballot before I decide to check WOS and see who of those guys can make the top 100.

So far I have 33 puro guys, 59 US/Canada guys and the 4 lucha wrestlers that I managed to watch a decent amount of footage even though I couldn't get in to the style (mostly due to the fukking abysmal commentary).

I need help in finding out who I might be missing, the first two tries I did making a list I forgot about Savage and then Rey Mysterio and Bockwinkel :snoop: so if y'all could check it out and point out what name you think should be a LOCK on a top 100 and isn't there, it would be much appreciated :salute: keep in mind I've never seen much Joshi and wont be able to really dig in to it before the deadline so I decided not to include any possibly candidate out that group.

The list is as follows (no order whatsoever yet, I'm not opening that can of worms until like February :whoa:)

Misawa
Jumbo
Kawada
Tenryu
Fujiwara
Hashimoto
Fujinami
Liger
Kobashi
Akiyama
Taue
Choshu
Mutoh
Inoki
Baba
Destroyer
KENTA
Tanahashi
Daisuke Sekimoto
Nakamura
Nagata
Kensuke Sasaki
Tamura
Volk Han
Ikeda
Ishikawa
Shinjiro Ohtani
The Great Sasuke
Kazuo Yamazaki
dikk Togo

Masato Tanaka
Negro Casas
El Hijo del Santo
El Dandy
Satanico


Ric Flair
Terry Funk
Jerry Lawler
Stan Hansen
Chris Benoit
Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan
Eddie Guerrero
Rey Mysterio
Shawn Michaels
Bret Hart
Steve Austin
Sgt. Slaughter
Ricky Steamboat
Vader
Mick Foley
Hulk Hogan
Barry Windham
Kerry Von Erich
Buddy Rose
dikk Murdoch
Kurt Angle
John Cena
CM Punk
AJ Styles
Samoa Joe
Arn Anderson
William Regal
Fit Finlay
Claudio Castagnoli/Cesaro
Chris Hero
Nigel McGuiness
Andre The Giant
Dutch Mantell
Ted DiBiase
Bob Backlund
Randy Savage
Owen Hart
Dinamite Kid
Harley Race
Tully Blanchard
Bruiser Brody
Rick Rude
Curt Hennig
Rick Martel
Chris Jericho
The Rock
Triple H
Ricky Morton
Bobby Eaton
Jake Roberts
Jerry Blackwell
Billy Robinson
Bobby Eaton
Nick Bockwinkel
El Generico/Sami Zayn
Jack Brisco
Michael Hayes
Terry Gordy
Steve Williams

@TrueEpic08 @3Rivers @Beautiful Bobby Eatin @Don Rhymus @Kidd Dibiase @MightyHealthy @The Rainmaker @Honga Ciganesta give a breh some help
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Beautiful Bobby Eatin

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Aight brehs I need y'all help. The Greatest Wrestler Ever poll has an official deadline (Wrestlemania 32 weekend) and I decided to make a list of guys that will most likely make my ballot before I decide to check WOS and see who of those guys can make the top 100.

So far I have 33 puro guys, 59 US/Canada guys and the 4 lucha wrestlers that I managed to watch a decent amount of footage even though I couldn't get in to the style (mostly due to the fukking abysmal commentary).

I need help in finding out who I might be missing, the first two tries I did making a list I forgot about Savage and then Rey Mysterio and Bockwinkel :snoop: so if y'all could check it out and point out what name you think should be a LOCK on a top 100 and isn't there, it would be much appreciated :salute: keep in mind I've never seen much Joshi and wont be able to really dig in to it before the deadline so I decided not to include any possibly candidate out that group.

The list is as follows (no order whatsoever yet, I'm not opening that can of worms until like February :whoa:)



@TrueEpic08 @3Rivers @Beautiful Bobby Eatin @Don Rhymus @Kidd Dibiase @MightyHealthy @The Rainmaker @Honga Ciganesta give a breh some help
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This is a GREAT list but i would subtract dikk Murdoch and add a Gorgeous George or a Bam Bam Bigelow.

It would also be tough for me to add a lucha part to the list without a Dr Wagner Jr. Or a Gory Guerrero. WOS is going to bust this list right open too.

I may be well into the minority on this but i would have Nobuhiko Takada on there too but im also not sure if were going by workrate or influence
 

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Aight brehs I need y'all help. The Greatest Wrestler Ever poll has an official deadline (Wrestlemania 32 weekend) and I decided to make a list of guys that will most likely make my ballot before I decide to check WOS and see who of those guys can make the top 100.

So far I have 33 puro guys, 59 US/Canada guys and the 4 lucha wrestlers that I managed to watch a decent amount of footage even though I couldn't get in to the style (mostly due to the fukking abysmal commentary).

I need help in finding out who I might be missing, the first two tries I did making a list I forgot about Savage and then Rey Mysterio and Bockwinkel :snoop: so if y'all could check it out and point out what name you think should be a LOCK on a top 100 and isn't there, it would be much appreciated :salute: keep in mind I've never seen much Joshi and wont be able to really dig in to it before the deadline so I decided not to include any possibly candidate out that group.

The list is as follows (no order whatsoever yet, I'm not opening that can of worms until like February :whoa:)



@TrueEpic08 @3Rivers @Beautiful Bobby Eatin @Don Rhymus @Kidd Dibiase @MightyHealthy @The Rainmaker @Honga Ciganesta give a breh some help
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Superstar Billy Graham? Fathered a lot of styles:yeshrug:
 

Jmare007

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Booker T? Minoru Suzuki? Dusty Rhodes?

MiSu in on the bubble, dude is too inconsistent but if Nakamura is making my ballot then MiSu should be too I think. He's an interesting choice

Dusty? Ehhh, never really a big fan of his work. Dude was good and could have some very good brawls and intense matches but not enough to put him in the 100. His promo and character work is so fukking good that I thought about putting him but when I revisited what were his best matches then I went :patrice:

Booker is an interesting choice. Completely forgot about him :snoop: I'll see if he can make it. That's why I wanted to do this, thanks man.

This is a GREAT list but i would subtract dikk Murdoch and add a Gorgeous George or a Bam Bam Bigelow.

It would also be tough for me to add a lucha part to the list without a Dr Wagner Jr. Or a Gory Guerrero. WOS is going to bust this list right open too.

I may be well into the minority on this but i would have Nobuhiko Takada on there too but im also not sure if were going by workrate or influence

The list is almost entirely based on workrate (never seen a full Gorgeous George match, for example). I'd use things like influence or promo work to put a wrestler above the other when I just can't figure which one should be higher after going through their work.

Takada has very little chance of making it. I've seen too many nothing matches from him and not enough high end stuff to compensate (like Inoki).

Can't wait for WOS to be honest :banderas: I really hope my lazy ass is able to watch enough footage to give 5-7 guys a legit chance to make it.

Don't be like that with Murdoch breh :sadcam: such a horrible human being, and lazy as fukk sometimes but when he was on dude was fire. He's on the bubble though, he's in that Hogan/Dinamite Kid territory were 3 months from now I might run out of excuses to put him in.

Superstar Billy Graham? Fathered a lot of styles:yeshrug:

He did, but dude was :scust: in the ring. The only matches worth a damn I've watched from him are the Dusty matches at the Garden.


appreciate the help brehs :salute: :salute:
 

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@Jmare007 I think you have pretty much all the ''lock'' locks (the Inoki, Misawa, Kawada, Hash types) and then it kinda comes down to personal stuff. Like I love Joshi so I would fill up a lot of spaces with Hokuto, Aja types while dropping... well I'm not quite sure (this is why I can't make a ballot :heh:).But just a few names to get your thoughts:

Necro
Kanemoto
Ishii
Fuchi
Takayama
Dundee
Indie guys like Ki, Aries, Moxley/Ambrose etc

... and even just typing those names out I realise that they're really not locks but personal favourites. And I should add that, for example, I've never seen a Buddy Rose match so I can't say for certainty that I'd drop him out for one of those dudes I mentioned. A good amount of Battlarts/RINGS guys I love but I couldn't say they should make a list over a Brody.

And there's your SUWA guys who I loved but were pretty fleeting in the grand scheme of things. I'd put him in my list and be like :whoa: trying to defend the choice. So yeah this whole enterprise is tough to control :whew: Good luck with it though, look forward to seeing your final (numbered) list. You should definitely report back with the WoS too, I haven't watched any of that stuff for years and years.
 

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Observer stuff:

Kazuchika Okada defending the IWGP heavyweight title against Hiroshi Tanahashi is now officially the main event for Wrestle Kingdom 10 on 1/4 at the Tokyo Dome.

This marks the third time in the last four years the two have headlined Japan’s biggest pro wrestling event of the year. In 2013, Tanahashi pinned Okada to retain the IWGP title, and the same thing happened in 2015. Both were among the best matches of their respective years.

But there is going to the well once too often and New Japan is clearly past its peak, its top stars are physically beaten up. While still able to produce excellent matches on big shows, you can clearly see the difference in wrestlers like Tanahashi and Tomohiro Ishii due to the punishment they’ve taken in recent years, to where they may have to eventually join the likes of Yuji Nagata and Satoshi Kojima in the multiple-man prelims at some point, although with Tanahashi, just on name value, it will probably be some time before that happens. More importantly, the new stars aren’t there, and even if recruiting gets to the level of the 70s, 80s and 90s New Japan, it takes years before those dividends pay off. If New Japan had surpassed WWE as a model of booking and growing a fading wrestling business, WWE’s greater foresight with the emphasis on developmental has put it in far better position for the long run no matter the in-ring product quality.

There is the feeling of sameness in New Japan right now, as exemplified in some ways by the King of Pro Wrestling show on 10/12 at Tokyo Sumo Hall. There was only one bad match on the show, and by most standards, it was a very good major event. But it was lacking compared to similar big shows in recent years. The banged up bodies from G-1 had clearly not recovered. Besides Tanahashi and Ishii, Tomoaki Honma, with a bad back, was limited and was nowhere near his usual level. Shinsuke Nakamura, one of the world’s best wrestlers, worked a short six-man tag and was barely in, even though KOPW is considered one of the company’s major events of the year.

There were some elementary booking issues, such as two straight junior heavyweight title matches with all foreign talent, so there was a lack of rooting interest to the crowd. Plus, referee Massao Hattori screwed up the finish of the tag team title match. The top two matches both were Americanized, with the ref bumps and outside interference. Because Japanese wrestling is presented as sport, outside interference looks out of place. However, because it’s rarely used, and is part of The Bullet Club gimmick, it is effective when done. But it felt overdone on this show.

In the case of Tanahashi vs. Naito, part of the storyline was to introduce the new character, called Evil (Takaaki Watanabe of ROH) as a new star affiliated with Naito. So, outside interference in that match was a necessary evil. The Okada vs. A.J. Styles IWGP title match had it because it played into The Bullet Club gimmick. It didn’t need it, as with or without it, those two on that stage were going to have a great match.

Tanahashi and Okada both won the two matches that would determine the Dome main event, as expected. They had a confrontation in the ring at the end of the show. The two have the modern-day Brisco vs. Funk, Thesz vs. O’Connor, Flair vs. Steamboat and Misawa vs. Kobashi rivalry, but aside from the Misawa vs. Kobashi program, which actually peaked with their final singles match, all the others did run their course in time. Whether that’s the case here will be determined by ticket sales as compared to prior years, but as the two were in the ring, I didn’t sense the excitement level was at the level of last year.

The Sumo Hall show drew 8,302 paid, and had about 9,000 in the building. It was just shy of a sellout. New Japan had sold the building out in advance for last year’s show (Tanahashi vs. Styles; Okada vs. Naito), as well as Invasion Attack in April (Styles vs. Kota Ibushi; Okada vs. Bad Luck Fale), so it’s down from the peak, but still ahead of everything from probably 2005 until that point.

The show also featured the debut of English language announcers on New Japan World. There was a dual feed. A lot of people, myself included, had trouble with buffering constantly on the English feed, while the Japanese feed was perfect.

The Kevin Kelly/Matt Striker combination was heavily criticized, particularly on the night of the show, because they were in a “no-win” situation being compared to Mauro Ranallo and Josh Barnett, the best English language announcing team in the business by a wide margin.

Several times during the show, Striker kept making reference to Ranallo and Barnett and what a great job they do with the product. At the same time, Ranallo and Barnett all night long were re-tweeting fan after fan who were asking why they weren’t doing the broadcast. Kelly was fine, although he was not very familiar with the product, which wasn’t obvious most of the way but in certain spots it was glaring. It felt to me he didn’t study at the level Jim Ross did before his Tokyo Dome broadcast. Ross was also unfamiliar with the product, but studied enough to have a good idea and his natural instincts took over in the singles matches. If Kelly does this regularly, I have no doubt he’ll pick up that familiarity pretty fast. Striker is familiar with the product, clearly a fan of Japanese wrestling and while not totally up on New Japan before the Dome show, studied it then and seems pretty much up to speed now.

Striker is one of those guys who makes some people cringe, while others don’t have a problem with him. He and Kelly clearly go in with different mindsets. Kelly broadcasted the show like he would broadcast an ROH show, as a professional announcer talking to a mass audience. Striker, even though he was trained by WWE to talk to the masses, was acting like he was talking to the members of a small club of insider fans. A lot of people didn’t like that, but in truth, there are less than 5,000 English language subscribers to New Japan World, and a huge percentage of that number are readers of this publication. He was constantly doing shout-outs to his friends, other wrestlers, or Twitter or web site guys who write about Japanese wrestling. He’d talk like a fan who watched some tapes who couldn’t wait to say “lariato,” and do insider imitations and things like that. If he did this on AXS, it would really be terrible. The first reaction listening was negative and cringing, but that aspect wasn’t really that bad given who his audience really was. But because of who that audience was, the other side of Striker, the one who can’t help himself but make things up, was also on display, and that didn’t work as well. At times he would come up with his own storylines, particularly in trying to Americanize the Watanabe siding with Naito angle. He also overpushed at times, particularly in the main event, when he said the Okada vs. Styles match was the biggest match in each man’s career, and then said it was arguably the biggest match in the history of New Japan Pro Wrestling. While that would be bad under any circumstances, because it’s so clearly not the case, it was far worse when it’s an audience that almost all knows better than that. Because it was such a specialized audience, the fact Kelly was really just learning the product did hurt, because the reaction of the fans was that they knew what was going on the he didn’t. With Jim Ross, it wasn’t as bad because it was an audience of 15,000, many of whom were first-time ever viewers of the product while Kelly was drawing from New Japan World regulars who regularly watch the shows.

There were also long periods of silence from both announcers, which actually weren’t bad because that quality of wrestling works well even without announcing. It’s also an audience that at least would like the fact Striker does know the product, and realized Kelly really didn’t. Plus, even if Kelly had been tutored and studied like crazy and really knew the product instinctively, and Striker could reign in his natural tendencies, they were being compared to a better suited team.

In addition, and I noticed this because I was going back-and-forth between the Japanese and English feed, is that the matches were more exciting on the Japanese feed. Striker and Kelly both started announcing in WWE, so they have those tendencies of calling a match in a normal voice and limited going up and down. The Japanese announcers like Shimpei Nogami, and like Ranallo, or Jim Ross, go up and down depending on the excitement level of the crowd and the match. The New Japan style is so much better suited to the latter.

As noted, the impression given is this was an experiment and they would bring the English announcers back for the Dome show. They do need English announcers, but also need to promote the service in the U.S. and have an English language New Japan World web site. Unless you are bound and determined to figure it out, even with translations, the current web site is not conducive to being anything but a source of major frustration to someone who doesn’t read Japanese. If you are bound and determined to sign up, you will figure out how. If you just want to sign up, you could easily give up in frustration.

Regarding the U.S., the Tokyo Dome show will air one hour later than last year, starting at 3 a.m. Eastern and midnight Pacific.

New Japan has two major Japanese PPV shows between now and then. Power Struggle takes place on 11/7 from the Edion Arena (formerly Bodymaker Colosseum) in Osaka, starting at 3 a.m. Eastern and midnight Pacific on late Friday night. The finals of the 2015 World Tag League will be 12/9 at the Sun Plaza Hall in Sendai, a late Tuesday/early Wednesday 4:30 a.m.; 1:30 a.m. time slot.

Power Struggle will be headlined by Nakamura vs. Karl Anderson for the IC title, Tanahashi & Kota Ibushi vs. Okada & Kazushi Sakuraba, Ishii (who defeated Togi Makabe for the Never Open weight title at KOPW) defending against Honma, Styles & Bad Luck Fale vs. Toru Yano & Yoshi-Hashi, Hirooki Goto vs. Evil and the finals of a junior heavyweight tag team tournament that takes place at two Korakuen Hall shows on the tour.

The eight-man tournament will be a single elimination event, starting on the 10/24 and 11/1 Korakuen Hall shows, which will both be on New Japan World.

The first round is on 10/24, with a 5:30 a.m. Eastern time slot. On that show, the tournament matches pit Tiger Mask & Jushin Liger vs. IWGP jr. tag champs Bobby Fish & Kyle O’Reilly, Rocky Romero & Baretta vs. Kenny Omega & Chase Owens, Young Bucks vs. Ryusuke Taguchi & Mascara Dorada, and Alex Shelley & Kushida vs. Matt Sydal & Ricochet. Also on that card will be Makabe & Goto & Katsuyori Shibata & Captain New Japan vs. Yohei Komatsu & Sho Tanaka & Jay White & David Finlay, Nakamura & Toru Yano & Sakuraba & Yoshi-Hashi vs. Anderson & Doc Gallows & Fale & Tama Tonga, and Tanahashi & Honma & Juice Robinson vs. Okada & Ishii & Gedo.

Everything regarding Ricochet/Prince Puma as it pertains to New Japan is said to be worked out. He can do New Japan as Ricochet as long as it doesn’t conflict with the TV tapings, which are his first contractual priority. He will be on the entire tour. He was also originally booked for a major match at the Tokyo Dome, but we’re not sure about the Lucha Underground TV tapings schedule in January.

The winners of those four matches advance to the semifinals on 11/1, at 4:30 a.m. Eastern, with the two winning teams going to Power Struggle.

The next New Japan World broadcast will be the opener of the next tour on 10/23 in Tokorozawa, with a 6 a.m. Eastern time slot with Liger & Tiger Mask & Captain New Japan vs. Robinson & Komatsu & Tanaka, Fish & O’Reilly vs. Finlay & White, Taguchi & Dorada & Kushida & Shelley vs. Omega & Owens & Young Bucks, Goto & Shibata vs. Tonga & Cody Hall, Makabe & Honma vs. Ishii & Gedo, Nakamura & Yano & Yoshi-Hashi vs. Anderson & Gallows & Fale, and Tanahashi & Ricochet & Sydal vs. Okada & Romero & Baretta.

It was expected that much of the Dome show would be announced at the 10/13 press conference. But now it looks like angles will be shot at Power Struggle to make up the rest of the show, with the heavyweight tag team title match likely announced after the tag tourney finals with Anderson & Gallows, the IWGP tag champs, defending against the tournament winners.

There are really no conclusive directions for the Dome. Ibushi and Sakuraba being on opposite sides of a tag match is interesting, although Sakuraba vs. Shibata has also been teased. But Sakuraba (and possibly Ibushi) will be on the Rizing show on New Year’s Eve, so that becomes an issue due to the chance of injury. Styles beating Nakamura for the IC title makes sense because Styles has lost several singles matches and needs a big win, and that’s a match among the top guys that is still fresh.

Something to watch for is the next move involving Go Shiozaki, who quit All Japan to go independent. His name has been linked to speculation with both New Japan and Rizing.

Go vs Ibushi on New Years Eve :lupe: Watch them announce some nobody after all this talk :upsetfavre:

Meiko Satomura, who has been one of the best woman wrestlers in the world for much of the past two decades, had her 20th anniversary show on 10/12 in Sendai, for Sendai Pro Wrestling. The show drew a sellout 2,800 as Satomura beat Ayako Hamada to become the group’s world champion. Among the legends who worked on the show were Aja Kong, Shinobu Kandori, Manami Toyota and Jaguar Yokota.
 

Jmare007

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@Honga Ciganesta Holy shyt Bill Dundee :damn: :damn: completely forgot about Superstar :mjcry: dude will be in the ballot somewhere.

Fuchi, Takayama, Ki and Aries are like MiSu (and guys like Duggan). Dudes are on the bubble and can absolutely make in the final ballot, it will all depend on how I'm feeling by March.


I really appreciate all the help brehs :salute: :salute:
 

Beautiful Bobby Eatin

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@Honga Ciganesta Holy shyt Bill Dundee :damn: :damn: completely forgot about Superstar :mjcry: dude will be in the ballot somewhere.

Fuchi, Takayama, Ki and Aries are like MiSu (and guys like Duggan). Dudes are on the bubble and can absolutely make in the final ballot, it will all depend on how I'm feeling by March.


I really appreciate all the help brehs :salute: :salute:
If its workrate then Cena is undeservingly rubbing elbows with a lot of greats. Dude is way too sloppylooking in a lot of his moves. Id imediately replace him with a CIMA or a Zack Sabre Jr. But honestly this is also the reason im not sure i can do this list because i would be taking out guys too often to even rank them. If i did write a list it would look a lot like this one in terms of workrate :salute:
 

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Not sure if you're amongst the crowd that can appreciate Benoit even after his actions, but if you can, he makes more sense than a guy like Cena

But that's my opinion :manny:
 

Jmare007

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I'm not a big execution/crispness guy so I'm fine with Cena's sloppiness as long as dude can have a good match. And he did enough from 06' to 13' for me to consider him along the top 100. He'll be on the lower end most likely, but he'll be there.

I can separate Benoit's horrific crimes and craziness from his work, that's why he's on the list. He's probably gonna be very high too (top 20, or at the very least 30).
 

Beautiful Bobby Eatin

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I'm not a big execution/crispness guy so I'm fine with Cena's sloppiness as long as dude can have a good match. And he did enough from 06' to 13' for me to consider him along the top 100. He'll be on the lower end most likely, but he'll be there.

I can separate Benoit's horrific crimes and craziness from his work, that's why he's on the list. He's probably gonna be very high too (top 20, or at the very least 30).
How do you feel about criminally underrated guys like X-Pac and Rocky Romero?
 

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How do you feel about criminally underrated guys like X-Pac and Rocky Romero?

Waltman is a very interesting case, I had him in my original list but bumped him off once I started remembering more guys. I haven't seen his early indy shyt in years and lost the footage I had (got it from a torrent from PWT years ago :heh:) so it's kinda hard judging the stuff that was considered great/groundbreaking at the time.His WWF/WCW stints had enough good shyt to consider him. Unfortunately I feel I kinda need to rewatch the Lighting Kid stuff to have him as a lock.

Rocky Romero I honestly don't care for that much. Nothing against the guy, I've enjoyed a lot of matches he's been involved with, but I've never felt truly compelled to watch him in a match or felt he was a real standout guy.

Re: CIMA and Zack Sabre Jr. I once enjoyed Dragon Gate a great deal, but I was never a fan of their singles match, even though I've enjoyed CIMA and have no problem at all with people who consider him a lock candidate (and WON Hall of Famer as I've seen cases being made this year), it's one of those things were my tastes prevent me from putting him on the ballot.

ZSJ...not enough yet to consider him. If this project is revisited 5-10 years down the line as it's originally planed, then I'll see if he has a real case. Right now he's just starting to hit his stride and finding how to have matches that don't feel like an exhibition and have more "meat" to them.
 
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