Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

[Jmare007]

@TrueEpic08 @Beautiful Bobby Eatin @Honga Ciganesta @Don Rhymus So it' been almost a year since I sent yall a PM about PWO's "Greatest Wrestler Ever" project (if any of the brehs is interested, just ask). Slowly but surely I've been watching a ton of stuff in the past 11 months - helped by almost not watching current U.S stuff this year - and I've came to some conclusions that might be interesting topics for this Puro Thread:

1.- There's no way in hell I can send a ballot with a "clean conscience". Not saying I wont send one - still not sure though - but there's no possible way I can make a 100 or 50 list of wrestlers with any sort of consistency in the ranking my rationale for putting someone in the 50's may not completely apply for someone I'd put in the 20's just because, for whatever reason, I just like the guy in the 20's better.


2.- I'm at the point of restarting to watch puro and it's fukking beautiful. I still love this style with a passion. But watching some stuff I've come to 2 points that I wanna discuss with the brehs in this thread.

a) The more I watch and try to have a clearer picture of which wrestlers will be at the top/middle/low tiers, the more I find it difficult to decide between what's more important: consistency or peak. Misawa will very likely be my n°1, he's been my favorite for a decade and it's gonna take A LOT for me to give up on the idea he's the best I've ever seen. But he has a lot of shyt going against him. He wasn't better than above average (or even average) in the 80's and doesn't have the variety of great matches with different opponents as a lot of other n°1 candidates have. But fukk man, his 90' to 97' run is just untouchable for me. He was such an amazing Ace and dear fukking lord, no one even comes close to touching his mighty slow-burn comebacks, the fact that to this day no one has been able to even try to copy them is kinda telling. The only person I can see giving him a run for peak years is Fujiwara. If we go by consistency, I don't think anyone is better than Kawada. Longevity? Tenryu is pretty damn untouchable.

I'm more convinced than ever that Shinya Hashimoto >>> Kenta Kobashi. Hash is only behind Kawada, Tenryu, Jumbo and Fujiwara in my eyes. Liger and Fujinami are very close too.

Not japanese, but Stan Hansen is very close to get into my holy trinity of US workers. For years it's been Flair, Funk and Lawler for me but I've watched some Hansen in Puerto Rico and holy mother of fukk

b) Going through names, there's legit 1 guy from the 2000s I would put passed the 50-40 range. This is interesting because I'm not sure why I can't bring myself to put someone like Tanahashi in the 30's. It kinda bothers me that I give older guys more credit and appreciate their work waaay more than current guys, even though there's tons of workers I enjoy a fukk ton nowadays, is it just nostalgia and the fact that it's easier to judge someone whose career is over (or almost over)?.

Tanahashi and Sekimoto are probably my top 2 of this generation that will get on the ballot, it's amazing how guys like KENTA have fallen of my list during this process. Who from the current guys are really worth going into the 30's in y'alls opinion? Nakamura has incredible highs but he was bland for so long and he still isn't as consistent as I feel he could be.


3.- What the hell happened to @Hoss and why the fukk was he banned?


4.- Did any of you DIDN'T completely forgot about this project? I gotta be honest, the only reason I kept watching and kinda "working" towards doing a list for the project is because I visit PWO fairly regularly, I'm pretty sure if I didn't I would've gave up months ago. But anyways, will you still participate in it? There's still a 1 year left for ballots to be sent


Anyways, this is what happens when you have nothing going on on a Friday and you just binged watched almost 8 hours worth of puro from different promotions, just wanted to share my thoughts with the brehs.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

@TrueEpic08 @Beautiful Bobby Eatin @Honga Ciganesta @Don Rhymus So it' been almost a year since I sent yall a PM about PWO's "Greatest Wrestler Ever" project (if any of the brehs is interested, just ask). Slowly but surely I've been watching a ton of stuff in the past 11 months - helped by almost not watching current U.S stuff this year - and I've came to some conclusions that might be interesting topics for this Puro Thread:

1.- There's no way in hell I can send a ballot with a "clean conscience". Not saying I wont send one - still not sure though - but there's no possible way I can make a 100 or 50 list of wrestlers with any sort of consistency in the ranking my rationale for putting someone in the 50's may not completely apply for someone I'd put in the 20's just because, for whatever reason, I just like the guy in the 20's better.


2.- I'm at the point of restarting to watch puro and it's fukking beautiful. I still love this style with a passion. But watching some stuff I've come to 2 points that I wanna discuss with the brehs in this thread.

a) The more I watch and try to have a clearer picture of which wrestlers will be at the top/middle/low tiers, the more I find it difficult to decide between what's more important: consistency or peak. Misawa will very likely be my n°1, he's been my favorite for a decade and it's gonna take A LOT for me to give up on the idea he's the best I've ever seen. But he has a lot of shyt going against him. He wasn't better than above average (or even average) in the 80's and doesn't have the variety of great matches with different opponents as a lot of other n°1 candidates have. But fukk man, his 90' to 97' run is just untouchable for me. He was such an amazing Ace and dear fukking lord, no one even comes close to touching his mighty slow-burn comebacks, the fact that to this day no one has been able to even try to copy them is kinda telling. The only person I can see giving him a run for peak years is Fujiwara. If we go by consistency, I don't think anyone is better than Kawada. Longevity? Tenryu is pretty damn untouchable.

I'm more convinced than ever that Shinya Hashimoto >>> Kenta Kobashi. Hash is only behind Kawada, Tenryu, Jumbo and Fujiwara in my eyes. Liger and Fujinami are very close too.

Not japanese, but Stan Hansen is very close to get into my holy trinity of US workers. For years it's been Flair, Funk and Lawler for me but I've watched some Hansen in Puerto Rico and holy mother of fukk

b) Going through names, there's legit 1 guy from the 2000s I would put passed the 50-40 range. This is interesting because I'm not sure why I can't bring myself to put someone like Tanahashi in the 30's. It kinda bothers me that I give older guys more credit and appreciate their work waaay more than current guys, even though there's tons of workers I enjoy a fukk ton nowadays, is it just nostalgia and the fact that it's easier to judge someone whose career is over (or almost over)?.

Tanahashi and Sekimoto are probably my top 2 of this generation that will get on the ballot, it's amazing how guys like KENTA have fallen of my list during this process. Who from the current guys are really worth going into the 30's in y'alls opinion? Nakamura has incredible highs but he was bland for so long and he still isn't as consistent as I feel he could be.


3.- What the hell happened to @Hoss and why the fukk was he banned?


4.- Did any of you DIDN'T completely forgot about this project? I gotta be honest, the only reason I kept watching and kinda "working" towards doing a list for the project is because I visit PWO fairly regularly, I'm pretty sure if I didn't I would've gave up months ago. But anyways, will you still participate in it? There's still a 1 year left for ballots to be sent


Anyways, this is what happens when you have nothing going on on a Friday and you just binged watched almost 8 hours worth of puro from different promotions, just wanted to share my thoughts with the brehs.

Hoss banned himself. Dont know why though.

The issue i have is this boom in wrestling weve gotten on TV and remembering old names that ive overlooked. For example, this week ive found myself watching alot of Atsushi Onita and remembering that i kept him severely underrated at his importance to puro in the 90's.

And for this list, where do i go? Do i go with talent or overall influence? How they changed my life or wrestling in general? If i go my how they changed my life this list is impossible to accurately list in an order.

Now as i watch Jinsei Shinzaki come to the ring to fight the Gladiator, my childhood remembers certain moments like watching Shinzaki walk the ropes better than Undertaker.

I wonder where do I put Hogan?

Am i that huge of a Hayabusa mark?

Was Muta really that good or a fun gimmick?

Why was Onita always yelling at people backstage post match?

Was Inoki a little before my time to truly consider him the GOAT?

This is fun to think about but its giving me quite a bit of anxiety.

 

[Jmare007]

Hoss banned himself. Dont know why though.

The issue i have is this boom in wrestling weve gotten on TV and remembering old names that ive overlooked. For example, this week ive found myself watching alot of Atsushi Onita and remembering that i kept him severely underrated at his importance to puro in the 90's.

And for this list, where do i go? Do i go with talent or overall influence? How they changed my life or wrestling in general? If i go my how they changed my life this list is impossible to accurately list in an order.

Now as i watch Jinsei Shinzaki come to the ring to fight the Gladiator, my childhood remembers certain moments like watching Shinzaki walk the ropes better than Undertaker.

I wonder where do I put Hogan?

Am i that huge of a Hayabusa mark?

Was Muta really that good or a fun gimmick?

Why was Onita always yelling at people backstage post match?

Was Inoki a little before my time to truly consider him the GOAT?

This is fun to think about but its giving me quite a bit of anxiety.

Damn Hoss

That's where I find the most trouble, finding a single main thing to base the list of. In ring talent is by far the most important to me, but that means I'll probably have to leave out Hogan and that's hard. It also very difficult for me to put someone like Michaels ahead of Steve Austin, as much as I've tried, Stone GOAT doesn't have enough to surpass Michaels in that regard.

Hayabusa had great peaks and could be pretty damn great when he wanted to be, but there's not enough greatness for me to put him high. He'll most likely make my ballot.

Inoki is a curious case, for all the great stuff he was involved in he was probably involved in the same number of horrible matches and lazy as fukk performances. He won't be high on my list.

Never been a big fan of Muta, at all. It's the same case with Inoki, and Mutoh doesn't have as big highs as him imo. And as Great Muta he was fukking horrible and unwatchable 90% of the time when he wasn't in the NWA

Onita is someone I really need to rewatch but I'm not sure I'm going to end up doing. Never been a big fan even though I recon his talent. FMW is just not a priority for me at all. After this puro rewatch I'm going to dive into World Of Sports and I have no clue how long it's going to take me I tried 1 year to seriously watch Lucha and just couldn't but I don't think I'll have that problem with WOS because commentary can't be as atrocious as Lucha, nothing can be as bad as that unlistenable piece of garbage.

 

[Honga Ciganesta]

Very interesting post @Jmare007. I didn't forget about the poll but I realized pretty early on that I probably wasn't going to take part. One reason is the massive blind spots I have, a lot of territories, huge amounts of lucha and even some very highly rated Japanese wrestling. Even with the time frame I can't see myself being dedicated enough to catch up on Portland, Texas etc.

I agree with many of your other points. Someone like Volk Han never had a bad match, and had some classics, but he had only a small total amount of matches compared with most top tier workers. I love the guy, and the style, so I'd have him above a lot of other guys but I'm not sure it's right. Even comparing him with a very good worker like Fuchi who had decades of good-great matches, does the length go over the spectacular peaks? How do I go about all my loved Battlarts guys who never drew much, didn't work as much as guys in the major companies etc. Like I would probably want to put Ikeda etc above the likes of Ohtani but I don't know.

I would have Misawa on top also, the 90's were his decade and even in NOAH he produced some amazing work. The more I think about it I think that tournament final he had with Takayama in 01 was one of the best 00's matches. (speaking of Takayama here's another guy who starting out a little crappy but had an incredible run later on). Weirdly enough I've thought about Hash vs Kobashi a lot myself. Kobashi had some awesome matches, and the Kawada and Misawa ones were grueling and tough, but he never came close to the hate that Hash could put across. He was a lot more flashy and more of a show off than Hash but he has a little advantage in that his company position let him work from underneath for a good few years against the likes of Hansen, Williams etc and he was a great underdog. Still love his NOAH title run but he had a real sad ending. So I really can't choose (Hash/Tenryu is some of my GOAT stuff) so yeah... that's another reason I won't take part, I'd have them joint 7 or something.

Speaking of AJPW I've seen people lately say that Taue was better than Kobashi, I wouldn't agree but I think Akiyama has come REALLY close to him. So that's though too, never seen anyone take to wrestling like Akiyama. And Baba, here's a guy who I just love watching, that tag league match from 93 (I think) was too much fun and I enjoy him even in the comedy tags but I know people hate on him quite a bit, not sure where I'd place him.

My three Americans would be Flair, Funk and Bryan and I think I'd better leave it there because this is long I might come back and post about ranking the current crop though

Oh yeah and that Hoss deal was weird, never saw him feud with anyone or even post something angry

 

[Jmare007]

Very interesting post @Jmare007. I didn't forget about the poll but I realized pretty early on that I probably wasn't going to take part. One reason is the massive blind spots I have, a lot of territories, huge amounts of lucha and even some very highly rated Japanese wrestling. Even with the time frame I can't see myself being dedicated enough to catch up on Portland, Texas etc.

I agree with many of your other points. Someone like Volk Han never had a bad match, and had some classics, but he had only a small total amount of matches compared with most top tier workers. I love the guy, and the style, so I'd have him above a lot of other guys but I'm not sure it's right. Even comparing him with a very good worker like Fuchi who had decades of good-great matches, does the length go over the spectacular peaks? How do I go about all my loved Battlarts guys who never drew much, didn't work as much as guys in the major companies etc. Like I would probably want to put Ikeda etc above the likes of Ohtani but I don't know.

I would have Misawa on top also, the 90's were his decade and even in NOAH he produced some amazing work. The more I think about it I think that tournament final he had with Takayama in 01 was one of the best 00's matches. (speaking of Takayama here's another guy who starting out a little crappy but had an incredible run later on). Weirdly enough I've thought about Hash vs Kobashi a lot myself. Kobashi had some awesome matches, and the Kawada and Misawa ones were grueling and tough, but he never came close to the hate that Hash could put across. He was a lot more flashy and more of a show off than Hash but he has a little advantage in that his company position let him work from underneath for a good few years against the likes of Hansen, Williams etc and he was a great underdog. Still love his NOAH title run but he had a real sad ending. So I really can't choose (Hash/Tenryu is some of my GOAT stuff) so yeah... that's another reason I won't take part, I'd have them joint 7 or something.

Speaking of AJPW I've seen people lately say that Taue was better than Kobashi, I wouldn't agree but I think Akiyama has come REALLY close to him. So that's though too, never seen anyone take to wrestling like Akiyama. And Baba, here's a guy who I just love watching, that tag league match from 93 (I think) was too much fun and I enjoy him even in the comedy tags but I know people hate on him quite a bit, not sure where I'd place him.

My three Americans would be Flair, Funk and Bryan and I think I'd better leave it there because this is long I might come back and post about ranking the current crop though

Oh yeah and that Hoss deal was weird, never saw him feud with anyone or even post something angry

So true about Volk Han and the shoot guys. I'm not that big on the style but very few thing are as amazing as a great shoot style match and Han sure knew how to pull them off.

Akiyama is such an interesting case. If he keeps working he's gonna end up surpassing Kobashi too, imo. But he's not there yet, I've loved what I've seen from his All Japan run though. It does kinda bother me he couldn't be that motivated for NOAH after 05' but he's kinda the only one that could sustain greatness as Tenryu did.

Taue is the epitome of "peak vs consistency" guy. He's also a weird case in the sense that he tends to be overlooked because people pay more attention to Kobashi/Misawa/Kawada but the same people that try to pimp Taue's work kinda over do it by just pointing out his great stuff and not the "very good", which was what he did the majority of his career. Peak and motivated Taue could be the best of the 4, but he's the least talked about guy for a reason too, the other three normally surpassed him and had better "peak" showings throughout their careers.

Yesterday I was watching the Hashimoto vs Yamazaki feud even though Yamazaki ended up being his bytch, it was such an entertaining and hate-fueled feud. Hash was the interpromotional master

Bryan is the only post 2000's guy I mentioned as the sole wrestler that would make my top 40. I've been rewatching his early 2000's work and some of it is even better than I remembered. Dude could be as high as 10 in my ballot, motherfukker was putting on legit classics on different promotions by his SECOND year as a pro

 

[DoubleJ13]

Started watching some random Ibushi matches & stumbled into a hour long campsite match from DDT. Thought I had seen some shyt too & then Japan threw the Danshoku Dino curve & now I just don't know anymore

 

[3Rivers]

 

[The Rainmaker]

I NEED to watch at least one of these DVDs in my lifetime

Ishii is the complete opposite of his gimmick in real life. He's so happy in all of these videos.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

So true about Volk Han and the shoot guys. I'm not that big on the style but very few thing are as amazing as a great shoot style match and Han sure knew how to pull them off.

Akiyama is such an interesting case. If he keeps working he's gonna end up surpassing Kobashi too, imo. But he's not there yet, I've loved what I've seen from his All Japan run though. It does kinda bother me he couldn't be that motivated for NOAH after 05' but he's kinda the only one that could sustain greatness as Tenryu did.

Taue is the epitome of "peak vs consistency" guy. He's also a weird case in the sense that he tends to be overlooked because people pay more attention to Kobashi/Misawa/Kawada but the same people that try to pimp Taue's work kinda over do it by just pointing out his great stuff and not the "very good", which was what he did the majority of his career. Peak and motivated Taue could be the best of the 4, but he's the least talked about guy for a reason too, the other three normally surpassed him and had better "peak" showings throughout their careers.

Yesterday I was watching the Hashimoto vs Yamazaki feud even though Yamazaki ended up being his bytch, it was such an entertaining and hate-fueled feud. Hash was the interpromotional master

Bryan is the only post 2000's guy I mentioned as the sole wrestler that would make my top 40. I've been rewatching his early 2000's work and some of it is even better than I remembered. Dude could be as high as 10 in my ballot, motherfukker was putting on legit classics on different promotions by his SECOND year as a pro

And theres one of my blind spots. Rings, BattleARTS and the like i havent watched much of and ive never seen a Volk Han match so i couldnt comment on that.

Im going to be in the minority for this and maybe get a little heat but for me, Akiyama has already surpassed Kobashi. His versatility for his heel turn with Sterness, and basically making Makoto Hashi his bytch and even creating that nonsensical Hardcore championship in NOAH. His ring skill was awesome too and while ill always love Kobashi, and he will go down as having the most memorable classics, if i take the nostalgia shades off and compare the two i get Akiyama a little edged out from Kobashi.

Taue will only break my top 100 by association to Hard Luck Kawada.

 

[23Barrettcity]

Isn't chaos suppose to be heels ? I don't get their deal

 

[3Rivers]

Isn't chaos suppose to be heels ? I don't get their deal

I'd say tweeners in theory if anything. Yano tries to cheat all the time but still gets pops. Nakamura straight up punches guys in the face and taunts his opponents but the crowd loves him. They may have been more hated when they initially formed but its clearly not the case anymore. Someone like @Jmare007 or @The Rainmaker can speak on it more

 

[The Rainmaker]

I'd say tweeners in theory if anything. Yano tries to cheat all the time but still gets pops. Nakamura straight up punches guys in the face and taunts his opponents but the crowd loves him. They may have been more hated when they initially formed but its clearly not the case anymore. Someone like @Jmare007 or @The Rainmaker can speak on it more

Yeah, it's basically that. They were the main heel unit, feuding with the New Japan Sekigun (I.E., not exactly a unit, but every wrestler who wasn't in one, like Tanahashi, Nagata, Goto...) until Suzuki-Gun and Bullet Club arrived. Since these factions are represented in more despicable ways, Chaos assumed the face role in their feuds with them, without abandoning some of their heel tactics. And with that they have the freedom to act silly in those Yano produced DVDs.

Also I think they have overstayed their welcome. I believed they were going to break up last year (or at least start to crumble) after the Okada/Nakamura main event in Seibu Dome. But one year later still going strong.

 

[Jmare007]

Yeah they started as heels but as time went on they are more of a "rebel" group and those tend to be popular in Japan, specially as time goes by. The fact that the Bullet Club became the defacto heel stable was also a factor.

But Japanese crowds are kinda basic. They don't pay much attention to "heel/face" dynamics and tend to cheer or boo depending on how they feel about a wrestlers action in that moment, regardless of his role as a face or a heel. shyt, even fukking Misawa got booed out of the building in Kobashi's return match in 07' because he kept working on him and not letting him hit his signature moves/spots

Cheating tactics can also be seen as comedy spots sometimes so they don't always garner boos. It's all about context and timing when it comes to puro crowds.

 

[3Rivers]

Also I think they have overstayed their welcome. I believed they were going to break up last year (or at least start to crumble) after the Okada/Nakamura main event in Seibu Dome. But one year later still going strong.

Maybe that takes place this year. If Nakamura wins G-1(beating Okada on the way) and facing off again at WK10

 

[The Rainmaker]

Maybe that takes place this year. If Nakamura wins G-1(beating Okada on the way) and facing off again at WK10

It's possible, but the fact that Okada's match before the Nakamura one is against Nagata ( It's impossible that he'll lose against the 'anti-aging' hero) and he has a 2 point advantage makes it doubtful.

But you have the advantage if you are tied on points with someone but you defeated him, so Nakamura can perfectly advance to the finals beating Okada.