Is Nikola Jokic a top 20 player of all time right now?

[Harry B]

It's so hard to separate offense and defense, he's like top 10 offensive player but if it's 50/50 then no if it's like 80/20 then he's heading to top 10 as a player as well.

Problem with MVPs is that it's often just basic stats, meaning that when you are averaging 13 rebounds = good defense, x steals = good defense.
But if you are just the designated rebounder and tall, that shyt should be adjusted. Prime Ben Wallace, young Gobert and Rodman = great rebounders, Di Embiid, Jokic, Dirk or Westbrook, not so much. But journalists are such basic stat lovers

 

[Braman]

1. Mike
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Russell

Haggle with the order if you like, but that’s about as consensus a top 10 as you can get. There is no conversation at ALL for top ten. None.

11. Hakeem
12. Steph
13. Oscar
14. KD

I think Jokic with 1 ring enters here. With Giannis, Dirk, KG. And he clears all of them.

Now Jokic with another ring and FMVP?!? Oh yall might lose your shyt bc he’d be at WORST in that 11 slot AHEAD of Hakeem and he’d have a strong argument in the top 10 vs Bird, Kobe, and Duncan.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

1. Mike
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Russell

Haggle with the order if you like, but that’s about as consensus a top 10 as you can get. There is no conversation at ALL for top ten. None.

11. Hakeem
12. Steph
13. Oscar
14. KD

I think Jokic with 1 ring enters here. With Giannis, Dirk, KG. And he clears all of them.

Now Jokic with another ring and FMVP?!? Oh yall might lose your shyt bc he’d be at WORST in that 11 slot AHEAD of Hakeem and he’d have a strong argument in the top 10 vs Bird, Kobe, and Duncan.

These outrageous #s by Jokic is putting him close to Wilt status.

However Wilt is a guy who moves from 5 to 12 quite often on lists. And high key in the mid 90s he was closer to 2 or 3 by the old heads.

 

[Braman]

MVPs + Finals MVPs. Look how accurate this list is

That’s from 2023, so Jokic is now at 4.

I don’t think regular season mvp should weigh more than Finals MVP so I wouldn’t have him top 10, but he’s closer than you’d think and if he somehow gets a 2nd ring/fmvp he’s flirting with top 5

All this is without a prime HOF teammate which almost everyone else had. Hell he’s actually never had a prime ALL STAR teammate

 

[the cool]

More mvps than Kobe and Shaq combined


Led his team to a championship with zero all stars


Looking at the roster he’s had. These guys are all bums.

 

[Reggie]

1. Mike
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Russell

Haggle with the order if you like, but that’s about as consensus a top 10 as you can get. There is no conversation at ALL for top ten. None.

11. Hakeem
12. Steph
13. Oscar
14. KD

I think Jokic with 1 ring enters here. With Giannis, Dirk, KG. And he clears all of them.

Now Jokic with another ring and FMVP?!? Oh yall might lose your shyt bc he’d be at WORST in that 11 slot AHEAD of Hakeem and he’d have a strong argument in the top 10 vs Bird, Kobe, and Duncan.

ONLY the order in the top ten should be debated but you got the list as it should be. Mike Bron Cap Magic Tim Kobe Shaq Bird Wilt Russell for me. Then you got Dream Steph KD Oscar Moses Jerry Julius Mailman Isaiah in some order. That's 19 players alone. Add a Barkley Elgin Dirk KG Joker Giannis Harden Wade Dwight etc. and it's a hell of a debate as to who is in the top 20 after the first 14 (16 for me cause I got Moses and Jerry after the other 4) but Joker has just as much of an argument NOW as any of the other cats.

 

[Reggie]

It's so hard to separate offense and defense, he's like top 10 offensive player but if it's 50/50 then no if it's like 80/20 then he's heading to top 10 as a player as well.

Problem with MVPs is that it's often just basic stats, meaning that when you are averaging 13 rebounds = good defense, x steals = good defense.
But if you are just the designated rebounder and tall, that shyt should be adjusted. Prime Ben Wallace, young Gobert and Rodman = great rebounders, Di Embiid, Jokic, Dirk or Westbrook, not so much. But journalists are such basic stat lovers

I don't think Joker can be considered a bad rebounder with seasons getting 12 and 13 a night. Dirk probably could have grabbed more but we know he was more perimter based. Hell Brook Lopez is a designated rebounder if we are going off height and without looking I know he's never even sniffed 10 boards a night.

 

[Red Money]

More mvps than Kobe and Shaq combined


Led his team to a championship with zero all stars


Looking at the roster he’s had. These guys are all bums.

Jamal Murray was very important. Him being injured at times set the team back.

I can only speak for myself, but I only like ranking players in an all-time context if I have the totality of their work to judge (or they're nearing the end of their primes, like Steph). It's just a needless argument to be having, especially since it only encourages having these discussions well before they're even warranted.

He has one of the highest peaks in NBA history and we can appreciate his play in the now.

We can acknowledge all that without talking about all-time ranking.

I get that...but it depends on the player, imo.

Tom Brady after 3 rings wasn't in a goat convo...but Mahomes was after a couple rings because of style of play and stats.

 

[Unbothered]

Well, I stated in a thread a few weeks ago that when his career is over, I think in the position-less rankings, he'll be among the top 20-35 players of all time.

So, anywhere between #20 and #35.

I don't think he'll ever be in that top 5-10 range because I don't believe he'll win any more championships at this point. To be ranked that high in the all-time rankings, he's gotta win a minimum of 3-4 championships and needs some more iconic postseason performances.

The Nuggets just don't have the flexibility to create a bonafide contender; the man's gonna be stuck with Aaron Gordon, MPJ, and Murray as his teammates for at least the next 2-3 seasons; it's not that they're scrubs but rather because their contracts aren't very tradable, it's hard to improve the team and while Braun, Watson, etc are good players, I don't think they're moving the needle in the long-run.

 

[Braman]

I think in the position-less rankings, he'll be among the top 20-35 players of all time.

So, anywhere between #20 and #35.

That’s why I said you gotta list it out. Bc 20-35 might sound good in your head but in practice? Not a fukkin chance Like go ahead and try.

You’d start feeling silly by 22, 23

 

[Jplaya2023]

Embiid got better head to head numbers

Embiid 6-2 against Jokic averaging 28 &11

Misleading since embiid misses the denver trip every year

 

[inndaskKy]

That’s why I said you gotta list it out. Bc 20-35 might sound good in your head but in practice? Not a fukkin chance Like go ahead and try.

You’d start feeling silly by 22, 23

Wilt
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
LeBron
Bird
Oscar
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
KG
Duncan
Curry
Isiah
Pippen
Moses
West
Giannis
Olajuwon
Dirk
KD

That's 22. Was pretty light work actually. And I've been generous by leaving out a few people.

 

[Braman]

Wilt
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
LeBron
Bird
Oscar
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
KG
Duncan
Curry
Isiah
Pippen
Moses
West
Giannis
Olajuwon
Dirk
KD

That's 22. Was pretty light work actually. And I've been generous by leaving out a few people.

@ bold are flat out no’s. If we was hoopin you’d hear a ‘hell no!’. 3 MVPs to 0 is a non starter. You could dismiss those mvps when he didnt have a ring but once he got that nah. And with Dirk how is a dude with a 1 MVP- 1 ring resume ahead of Jokic when Jokic has more MVPs.

@ underlined are debateable’s. Giannis and KG also 1 MVP- 1 ring resumes but have defensive accolades so I wont press it

So at best, you’re at 17 which sounds about right.
Mans said light work. You conveniently stopped at 22. I DARE you to go from 23-35 I need a good laugh

 

[King Poetic]

Not sure….

My top 18


Jordan
LeBron
Kobe
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Steph
Russell
Oscar
Barkley
Dr J
Moses malone
D Wade
Jerry West

Then
You have KD, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, even Dirk and u can add Joker

 

[inndaskKy]

@ bold are flat out no’s. If we was hoopin you’d hear a ‘hell no!’. 3 MVPs to 0 is a non starter. You could dismiss those mvps when he didnt have a ring but once he got that nah. And with Dirk how is a dude with a 1 MVP- 1 ring resume ahead of Jokic when Jokic has more MVPs.

@ underlined are debateable’s. Giannis and KG also 1 MVP- 1 ring resumes but have defensive accolades so I wont press it

So at best, you’re at 17 which sounds about right.
Mans said light work. You conveniently stopped at 22. I DARE you to go from 23-35 I need a good laugh

He said 20-35 that's why I stopped. If you wanna just count accolades there's a whole bunch of guys with more rings than Joker that I could name, and I didn't even bring up the fact that Jokic got some of his MVPs easier than some other players who got robbed.

No way you can dismiss Wade, Pippen, Isiah or West. I'll give you Dirk and replace him with Kawhi.