Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

[inndaskKy]

Not always. There are plenty of people with autism who are super successful because of it, obviously depending on the type and degree of it. My dad has aspbergers and it made him an incredibly good trauma surgeon because he doesn’t get very emotional and just goes to work trying to save the patient. You’re the one who said mental illness is prevalent in the animal kingdom, I’m just waiting for your proof of this. Homosexuality, bisexuality, etc isn’t harmful to humans who fall under the category until bigots like you impose your stupid ass ideas or thoughts onto them.

You've taken someone else's view points personally even though they weren't harming you at all. I've said nothing that amounts to bigotry or even stupidity. You appear to be much less tolerant of other people's tastes and rights than you ask them to be. That is what actual bigotry is.

As for Asperger's and autism, these are widely recognized to be mental disorders (and to be due to neurodevelopmental abnormalities as I mentioned in my casual definition). No one said anything about people with mental health problems not being able to function in society.

As for "proof", it can't be given on the basis of studies because there haven't been many, but for obvious reasons: wild animals with severe brain disorders don't last long in the wild. They'll be killed or just perish because they'd have a functional disadvantage. Here's an article discussing that a bit: Can wild animals have mental illnesses?

Also, many researchers still are biased against animals having minds or being able to suffer at all, even though those beliefs are not supported by the evidence. That explains why so few studies are done on it. There is a biased paradigm against it.

Here's an article that did try to look for empirical evidence in a species and found it: Fear of predators causes PTSD-like changes in brains of wild animals

But there have been many studies showing that animals in captivity can suffer and show strange behaviors from unnatural conditions much like humans do.

But if you think animals can't have mental illnesses I assume you believe either one of the following must be true? 1. animals' brains can't come out abnormal due to genetic mutations or neurodevelopmental disturbances 2. mental health/illness in humans is not due to brain (dys)function in any way at all 3. animals don't have minds in any way at all

I think there is evidence to show that none of these three assumptions is plausible so I'm curious as to how you explain only humans being able to be mentally ill? Indeed, how would you characterize mental illness in humans in the first place?

 

[Brehcepticon]

what year is it

This smells like a TLR thread.

 

[AsTheWorldBurns]

I'm not an expert either. But it's certainly not famously so.

But to ask you an animal acquaintance question back: how many male ants do you know that take on the tasks of female worker ants or that try to mimick the role of the nest's queen?

None to my knowledge. But I also don’t know of any leisure activities ants participate in. Which is kinda my whole premise.

Most animals are built only for survival. Sex in relation to survival is for reproduction, not enjoyment. But when know humans actually enjoy sex, and like to do it outside of just reproduction.

Dolphins and bonobos some animals we have documented that enjoy engaging in sexual activity outside of just reproduction. And both of those species have been documented engaging in same sex activity.

So this leads me to believe that animals that have sex for fun don’t care too much about being heterosexual. In fact, they might be seeking out same sex partners as a way to control reproduction while still getting to enjoy sex.

 

[inndaskKy]

None to my knowledge. But I also don’t know of any leisure activities ants participate in. Which is kinda my whole premise.

Most animals are built only for survival. Sex in relation to survival is for reproduction, not enjoyment. But when know humans actually enjoy sex, and like to do it outside of just reproduction.

Dolphins and bonobos some animals we have documented that enjoy engaging in sexual activity outside of just reproduction. And both of those species have been documented engaging in same sex activity.

So this leads me to believe that animals that have sex for fun don’t care too much about being heterosexual. In fact, they might be seeking out same sex partners as a way to control reproduction while still getting to enjoy sex.

Yeah but now you've gone back to the sexuality part but as I've stated many people associate gay people with 'unnatural' behavior because of the behaviors associated with identity. Just take a look at many of the stereotypical portrayals of gay people. Many of them do not focus on the sex part but on the body language and way of talking etc.

 

[AsTheWorldBurns]

Yeah but now you've gone back to the sexuality part but as I've stated many people associate gay people with 'unnatural' behavior because of the behaviors associated with identity. Just take a look at many of the stereotypical portrayals of gay people. Many of them do not focus on the sex part but on the body language and way of talking etc.

Idk on the socialization part. Could be a number of factors. Maybe some people are just naturally more feminine/masculine than the baseline of their respective sex, and because of that they are more inclined to be attracted to the things they personally lack.

I’ve also heard that some gay men take on stereotypical gay mannerisms as they socialize with other gay men, in an attempt to accept their new homosexuality identity. And a wanting to be accepted into the greater gay community.

But I do know there’s WAY more men and women that engage in same sex activities, but act very straight in public. You just don’t know these people aren’t straight unless you know them.

 

[inndaskKy]

Idk on the socialization part. Could be a number of factors. Maybe some people are just naturally more feminine/masculine than the baseline of their respective sex, and because of that they are more inclined to be attracted to the things they personally lack.

I’ve also heard that some gay men take on stereotypical gay mannerisms as they socialize with other gay men, in an attempt to accept their new homosexuality identity. And a wanting to be accepted into the greater gay community.

But I do know there’s WAY more men and women that engage in same sex activities, but act very straight in public. You just don’t know these people aren’t straight unless you know them.

Both these behaviors do speak to some identity issues though.

That's just how I look at it. The sexuality part is clearly natural and personal preference (but can possibly be pushed one way or the other through societal cues) but the identity part is likely the result of cultural expectations colliding with emotional intelligence which is also true for many mental disorders.



One other thing I never understood: why should homocritical people accept gay people because it's natural but do gay people not have to accept the feelings of disgust that some heterosexual people feel at the thought of gay behaviors? If they don't call for violence or taking away rights from gay people, why is it bad for a heterosexual person to taunt another person with the slur of being 'gay' or even a 'fakkit'? Isn't that also just personal taste and preference?

 

[KidJSoul]

Both these behaviors do speak to some identity issues though.

That's just how I look at it. The sexuality part is clearly natural and personal preference (but can possibly be pushed one way or the other through societal cues) but the identity part is likely the result of cultural expectations colliding with emotional intelligence which is also true for many mental disorders.



One other thing I never understood: why should homocritical people accept gay people because it's natural but do gay people not have to accept the feelings of disgust that some heterosexual people feel at the thought of gay behaviors? If they don't call for violence or taking away rights from gay people, why is it bad for a heterosexual person to taunt another person with the slur of being 'gay' or even a 'fakkit'? Isn't that also just personal taste and preference?

Because those insults correlate with violence sometimes. And are often said by people who do choose to engage in violence or hostility.

You know how slurs work, don't be obtuse

 

[NZA]

nature is about throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. bonobos have wild bisexual orgies. ducks rape. this is all "natural". instead of nature, you may want to view homosexuality through a philosophical lens because nature says everything is good if it doesnt interfere with the success of your species.

 

[inndaskKy]

Because those insults correlate with violence sometimes. And are often said by people who do choose to engage in violence or hostility.

You know how slurs work, don't be obtuse

And you know most people who use the word 'fakkit' (for example on the Coli) don't do so to incite violence, just to express personal disgust. Correlation means very little. Not having reproductive sex with female members of a species 'correlates' with extinction but none of us care about that argument.

Gay (as well as 'liberal' straight) people know how power relations work yet deny that there is a so called 'agenda'. Stop guilt tripping people and maybe people will find a balance of tolerance quicker.

 

[AsTheWorldBurns]

Both these behaviors do speak to some identity issues though.

That's just how I look at it. The sexuality part is clearly natural and personal preference (but can possibly be pushed one way or the other through societal cues) but the identity part is likely the result of cultural expectations colliding with emotional intelligence which is also true for many mental disorders.



One other thing I never understood: why should homocritical people accept gay people because it's natural but do gay people not have to accept the feelings of disgust that some heterosexual people feel at the thought of gay behaviors? If they don't call for violence or taking away rights from gay people, why is it bad for a heterosexual person to taunt another person with the slur of being 'gay' or even a 'fakkit'? Isn't that also just personal taste and preference?

The first part bolded I don’t fully disagree with. I do believe that many gay and trans people are dealing with an identity crisis. But while you assume that issue is innate, I argue that the real issue is that society doesn’t have a place where these people can truly and comfortably exist.

I don’t believe people should be pressured to act or dress a certain way, just because of their sexual preferences. But that feeling goes both ways. If I like dressing like a tomboy and fukking women, I should be able to do that. But if I want to dress like a tomboy and only fukk men, I can do that too.
I do wonder, in a world that was completely uncaring of gender standards and sexual preferences, if we would still see “gay” or “straight” identities.

The rest of the bolded I feel you’re being disingenuous with, which is a shame because I feel that we were having a productive conversation until then.
Look, I’m not trying to think about old people having sex, but they should still be able to have sex if they want and I’m not going to call them slurs just because I don’t like seeing them have sex.
And I can honestly say I don’t like old people sex because I’ve been conditioned by society to think of old people as asexual people that only love the Lord and their grandchildren. If I grew up watching old people love scenes, seeing old people be affectionate in public, maybe I wouldn’t have such an immediate aversion to the thought.

Maybe you should do some self reflection on why you’re so repulsed by homosexuality that’s not rooted in a shaky argument that it’s “not normal” so you’re suppose to hate it.

 

[inndaskKy]

The first part bolded I don’t fully disagree with. I do believe that many gay and trans people are dealing with an identity crisis. But while you assume that issue is innate, I argue that the real issue is that society doesn’t have a place where these people can truly and comfortably exist.

I don’t believe people should be pressured to act or dress a certain way, just because of their sexual preferences. But that feeling goes both ways. If I like dressing like a tomboy and fukking women, I should be able to do that. But if I want to dress like a tomboy and only fukk men, I can do that too.
I do wonder, in a world that was completely uncaring of gender standards and sexual preferences, if we would still see “gay” or “straight” identities.

The rest of the bolded I feel you’re being disingenuous with, which is a shame because I feel that we were having a productive conversation until then.
Look, I’m not trying to think about old people having sex, but they should still be able to have sex if they want and I’m not going to call them slurs just because I don’t like seeing them have sex.
And I can honestly say I don’t like old people sex because I’ve been conditioned by society to think of old people as asexual people that only love the Lord and their grandchildren. If I grew up watching old people love scenes, seeing old people be affectionate in public, maybe I wouldn’t have such an immediate aversion to the thought.

Maybe you should do some self reflection on why you’re so repulsed by homosexuality that’s not rooted in a shaky argument that it’s “not normal” so you’re suppose to hate it.

A couple of things: first of all, let's not confuse my theoretical musings on what makes up homosexuality and what may cause repulsion by homosexuality with an outspoken stance either way.

I did not say that I personally am repulsed by homosexuality at all, it's just that I can see why some people are uncomfortable with it and feel the need to voice their feelings. And I can definitely see that people who deny that there has been a strong public pro-gay 'agenda' are not being honest and not being as open-minded and tolerant as they think they are.

For all you know, I could be as openly gay in real life as OP is on this forum.

Second, I'm not assuming identity issues are wholly innate. Rather, I'm distinguishing between people who take on 'the gay identity' because they want to validate their pre-existing sexual preferences as you describe and people who take on unusual mannerisms and develop ever-advancing confusing notions of self in which the sexuality part is just one optional component of a manufactured identity. These groups may both engage exclusively in gay sex for different reasons. The second, I argue, at first sight at least seems to have a lot more in common with mental (developmental) disorders than people acknowledge.

Third, a world without gender standards and sexual preferences sounds cool but are you really ready to accept the implications? Do you realize that our attitudes toward pedophilia are mostly due to these standards/preferences also and that across history and cultures people have had widely diverging views of adult-child sexual relations? Is my defending the right for people to feel disgust at homosexuality really disingenuous if you would like to defend your right to feel (physical and moral) disgust at adults having sex with children?

(I'm really not gay, homophobic or a pedophile by the way, this convo will make me look suspect in so many ways to Coli wolves )

 

[EndDomination]

No.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

We’re about to find out

 

[Geek Nasty]

I didn't real the whole thread, but I always wonder what the point is for such a biologically pointless characteristic. Is it just the failure rate for the evolution of normal sexual traits and the cost of sexual reproduction as a species? Is there some benefit to having a small percentage of gays who won't create children but can still work and contribute to society? Is it some ancient gene that can't be naturally selected out of humans because it's associated with something else more beneficial like disease resistance?

 

[Sbp]

It certainly is