Is English Just Badly Pronounced French?

[boogers]

Norman invasion brought over a lot of french words. Love linguistics and etymology!

came here to comment the same thing

 

[frush11]

I am, it doesn't. I literally have to sound it out when I'm reading, incomprehensible by ear. I thought my fluency was degrading, but no, I can listen to French news or converse in person with a native speaker, no problem.

Question, this might sound dumb. But when Africans speak. Do they have a distinct accent like some West Africans have when they speak English?

 

[frush11]

You should get into Creole languages.
It’s the most fascinating thing to study imo, you would LOVE it.

Because it shows how our African Ancestors thought.
And how those African Ancestors way of thinking manifested itself in us throughout the Americas in a completely new location among different Central and West-Africans.

So, what does this mean?

This means that certain African words would get preserved the exact same or in Creolized forms.

But one of the most fascinating things.

Is that even Colonial languages would get used in African ways outside of the structure of their European origin.

For instance, English verbs would get restructured to multi-functional use cases and become nouns, or progressive markers.

Sometimes even having 3 or 4 other functions outside of the original English or French context running parallel with the meaning and use cases of our Ancestral African languages directly.

Where Haitian Creole and Sranantongo from Surinam are the most radical Creoles in the Diaspora, meaning that they retained the most African features.

Jamaican Patois, Gullah and AAVE were in more proximity to its Colonial languages (English) in different degrees and that’s why they’re easier to understand in different degrees, but all retained African features that in some cases run parallel .

Like the zero-marked verbs in AAVE

“He my brother” | 0 = is

Or the zero-marked copula in AAVE

“They working today” | 0 = are

And these features manifested throughout the WHOLE African Diaspora in the Americas, because we’re all of African descent.

Meaning, how we think is literally African no matter where in the Americas we ended up from West & Central Africa.

It’s fascinating as hell.

Our Ancestors were smart as hell in creating new languages among eachother under those conditions.

Once you go down that rabbithole it will be whole nother endless amount of evidence found that in detail explains why those “we not from Africa” koons are ridiculous.

Our Africanness is literally in the way we think and speak.

Speaking off Creoles. The Creole spoken in Guinea Bissau, and Cape Verde. Is almost similar to the Creole spoken in the Dutch Antilles

 

[duck]

If you said italian or spanish youd be onto something. Because them and french are all b*stardised versions of latin. But english? Wtf u talkin about?

 

[ReasonableMatic]

Yes, I've dabbled in origins of AAVE structure, especially your specific example. I've also looked into some of your other examples like the structure of haitian creole. Interesting that it is considered most radical creolization, but it makes sense, since while I'm hardly fluent in french, it still didnt seem to match up as much.

Also love reading about the spanish/arabic borrowed words.

Yeah, both Creoles languages are so far removed from their European origin retaining their Ancestral African forms, that understanding of their Colonial language just won’t be enough.

French might help here and there, but a Frenchman won’t understand Haitian Creole.

Like how English might help here and there, but an Englishman or American won’t be able to understand Surinamese Creole.

The Central and West African structures in their foundation even overlap beyond their Latin and Germanic lexical influence.

I love reading about the Central and West African lexical influenc, because they are usually the largest and in cultural categories.

Like vegetables, animals, body parts, music and African Traditional Spiritual systems.

Which makes a lotta sense, because those categories were the most culturally important to our African Ancestors and remained important in their new environment in the Americas under the horrific conditions of enslavement.

Reading about the African Diaspora in the Americas from that context gives so much insight into how our Ancestors thought.

It’s fascinating as hell.

 

[ReasonableMatic]

Speaking off Creoles. The Creole spoken in Guinea Bissau, and Cape Verde. Is almost similar to the Creole spoken in the Dutch Antilles

Yeah, I know this very well.

My friend has ancestry in Curaçao.

She’s in Cape Verde right now with her bf (she fell in love).

And I sent her this video of a Curaçaoan and Cape Verdean being able to communicate with their Creole languages.



Shyt is so beautiful brehs, especially if you know the historical connection between Curaçao and Cape Verde

 

[Black Magisterialness]

You should get into Creole languages.
It’s the most fascinating thing to study imo, you would LOVE it.

Because it shows how our African Ancestors thought.
And how those African Ancestors way of thinking manifested itself in us throughout the Americas in a completely new location among different Central and West-Africans.

So, what does this mean?

This means that certain African words would get preserved the exact same or in Creolized forms.

But one of the most fascinating things.

Is that even Colonial languages would get used in African ways outside of the structure of their European origin.

For instance, English verbs would get restructured to multi-functional use cases and become nouns, or progressive markers.

Sometimes even having 3 or 4 other functions outside of the original English or French context running parallel with the meaning and use cases of our Ancestral African languages directly.

Where Haitian Creole and Sranantongo from Surinam are the most radical Creoles in the Diaspora, meaning that they retained the most African features.

Jamaican Patois, Gullah and AAVE were in more proximity to its Colonial languages (English) in different degrees and that’s why they’re easier to understand in different degrees, but all retained African features that in some cases run parallel .

Like the zero-marked verbs in AAVE

“He my brother” | 0 = is

Or the zero-marked copula in AAVE

“They working today” | 0 = are

And these features manifested throughout the WHOLE African Diaspora in the Americas, because we’re all of African descent.

Meaning, how we think is literally African no matter where in the Americas we ended up from West & Central Africa.

It’s fascinating as hell.

Our Ancestors were smart as hell in creating new languages among eachother under those conditions.

Once you go down that rabbithole it will be whole nother endless amount of evidence found that in detail explains why those “we not from Africa” koons are ridiculous.

Our Africanness is literally in the way we think and speak.

The absent verb or zero-marked verb is my favorite thing about AAVE. Saves so much time linguistically and virtually everyone understands it without knowing that the word was missing. If it wasn't associated with "slaves" most American's would speak like that because it's that easy to grasp.

 

[ReasonableMatic]

The absent verb or zero-marked verb is my favorite thing about AAVE. Saves so much time linguistically and virtually everyone understands it without knowing that the word was missing. If it wasn't associated with "slaves" most American's would speak like that because it's that easy to grasp.

Exactly. And pay attention to what you just said, it saves time.

This was an intentional thing.

Creole languages have the common phenomenon of making things efficient and practical.

Especially because it was Central and West-Africans who spoke different languages needing and wanting to communicate with eachother.

That’s why there are so many contractions in Creole languages too.

/ You ain’t even = yeen (AAVE) ️
être après = ap (Haitian Creole)
Go away = gwe (Surinamese Creole)

Just look at the beauty of efficiency on display, it’s elite.

And about the stigma, I think the lens needs to change.

Yes, the ppl that created AAVE and other Creole languages were enslaved Africans, but how powerful and inspiring is it that they were able to create AAVE and other Creole languages under the condition of enslavement.

That ain’t something to be ashamed for.

It’s a testament of their resilience and intelligence.

There’s power and value in that shared historical context
that is crucial to center.

 

[frush11]

Yeah, I know this very well.

My friend has ancestry in Curaçao.

She’s in Cape Verde right now with her bf (she fell in love).

And I sent her this video of a Curaçaoan and Cape Verdean being able to communicate with their Creole languages.



Shyt is so beautiful brehs, especially if you know the historical connection between Curaçao and Cape Verde

I just found this. I'm Krio Sierra Leonean. So I can relate to this

 

[ReasonableMatic]

I just found this. I'm Krio Sierra Leonean. So I can relate to this

I aint seen this video before, I’mma save it for a panel

But this is so funny to me because I was telling this very thing to a Krio Sierra Leonean the last week

I showed this to prove how our Creoles are mutually intelligible

 

[HarlemHottie]

Question, this might sound dumb. But when Africans speak. Do they have a distinct accent like some West Africans have when they speak English?

Yeah, but I can understand them. In my mind, it's as hard to understand as a very country ADOS, or a Jamaican with a strong accent (contrast that with, say, Guyanese- my ear isn't trained). Like, I'm a beat behind but I get it.

African francophones, by the time they get to me, in NYC, are usually well- educated enough that, even if they did speak a local creole growing up, they've been educated in Standard French.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Très intéressant

 

[HarlemHottie]

English's sentence structure is Germanic in nature...

English in America is a b*stard language just like we're a b*stard country. Partially what makes it so hard to learn is that it's a Germanic Language with a shyt ton of Romantic Language loan words

Dutch is another Germanic language, a cousin to English. I was in Amsterdam for three weeks. I'm fluent in French and very comfortable with Latin. I understood the signage upon arrival. By the end of week two, after much conversation with locals, I could interact at the market using Dutch pleasantries, counting change, etc.

I say all that to say, don't deny the importance of a language's underlying grammatical structure. That's most of the work right there. I never studied Spanish or Italian, but I can, say, translate a short written quote just by walking backward from Latin.

Also, re: what are called 'Atlantic creoles.' We actually maintained a lot of the underlying, African structure (of the Bantu languages, I guess?). This is why we might better understand Atlantic creoles vs non- Southern wp. We're understanding the underlying structure and similar linguistic borrowings bc this creole was birthed by the same population, those who came over on ships, regardless of where they later ended up.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

Exactly. And pay attention to what you just said, it saves time.

This was an intentional thing.

Just look at the beauty of efficiency on display, it’s elite.

And about the stigma, I think the lens needs to change.

Yes, the ppl that created AAVE and other Creole languages were enslaved Africans, but how powerful and inspiring is it that they were able to create AAVE and other Creole languages under the condition of enslavement.

That ain’t something to be ashamed for.

It’s a testament of their resilience and intelligence.

There’s power and value in that shared historical context
that is crucial to center.

Yeah, man. I was THIS close to studying linguistics in school, but I chose otherwise. Languages is one of my favorite things man. If I went to a board meeting and said "I ain't finna go ova der fukking wit dem people". EVERYONE would know what I mean. That's the beauty of AVEE/Creole langueges and dialects. Shorter with NO loss of meaning, in fact...I could argue it makes words more meaningful.

Dutch is another Germanic language, a cousin to English. I was in Amsterdam for three weeks. I'm fluent in French and very comfortable with Latin. I understood the signage upon arrival. By the end of week two, after much conversation with locals, I could interact at the market using Dutch pleasantries, counting change, etc.

I say all that to say, don't deny the importance of a language's underlying grammatical structure. That's most of the work right there. I never studied Spanish or Italian, but I can, say, translate a short written quote just by walking backward from Latin.

I studied Italian, French, Arabic and Japanese. Through Italian and French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Latin, Romanian, and even some Croatian are all easy to glean meaning from.

That's almost 10 languages from just understanding the sentence structure and the cognates (words that have the same derivative root. How "Lupis" becomes Lobo in Spanish/Portuguese, Loupe in French, and Lupo in Italian.)

My girl often looks at me all weird because I grasp "speaking" languages really fast. Mostly because I understand the structure super quick and get phrases down SUPER fast. Do that and you can start learning anything.

 

[DJSmooth]

English has a Latin base. It's a lil bit of everything thrown together over the years.