India About to Give Nigeria and Venezuela that Stimulus Package

[blackzeus]

1) The whole idea that "monetizing" your natural resources is the goal is the brainwashing crap the bro-imperialists sell you. What's the point of monetizing? Oh, to stimulate THEIR industrial machinery, pay off THEIR debts, and buy THEIR industrial products.

You don't monetize valuable, irreplaceable natural resources unless you have a clear plan for how that's the ideal move to permanently improve your country. With oil prices low, government struggling, and no clear plan, they are NOT doing it right. Use that oil to keep yourself energy independent (while you build more sustainable systems of energy independence) and keep the rest in the ground for that potential day when your future really depends on it. Meanwhile, focus on building your country, rather than selling it off.

2) China/India alone could singlehandedly change the course of history with emissions, depending on the choices they make. This isn't a pure population issue - some countries have 20x the per-person emissions of others. If we cut per-person emissions, we can support population fine. But emissions management involves many things,including using less oil. There's way more flexibility in how much and what kind of energy to use than in population size.

1) How do you get the money to build infrastructure to process your raw materials as a 3rd world country? I want you to think really hard breh, how do you raise the money to develop an oil field and/or an oil refinery if you are the Venezuelan government?

2) China and India together have about a quarter of the world's population breh, if 2/3rds of them have a car the world is f*cked. If you really feel so strongly about C02 emissions there is only one solution, the final solution

 

[Professor Emeritus]

1) How do you get the money to build infrastructure to process your raw materials as a 3rd world country? I want you to think really hard breh, how do you raise the money to develop an oil field and/or an oil refinery if you are the Venezuelan government?

2) China and India together have about a quarter of the world's population breh, if 2/3rds of them have a car the world is f*cked. If you really feel so strongly about C02 emissions there is only one solution, the final solution

But why would you be stupid enough to want to get a car in China/India?

Even right now with a small % of the population owning cars, traffic is hell, parking is hell, pollution is hell...why would you willingly add to that?

There are much more convenient ways to get around. The ONLY reason most people would have for getting a car is status/material lust driven by the multinationals. THAT is the problem. Others have begun to figure this out - that's why some wealthy European countries are down to 50% car ownership and dropping. And they could go further - it is EASY to reduce pollution levels by 50%, and possible to do it by 90%. Impossible to do the same to population.

And even if you magically kept population down, aren't the rich people going to just make it up by consuming twice as much anyway? Without a change in the current pro-consumption climate, is there any limit to what the wealthy will consume? Limit population, and the wealthy will more than make up for it. China has limited population, India hasn't, but China's emissions are growing faster than India's are.

 

[blackzeus]

But why would you be stupid enough to want to get a car in China/India?

Even right now with a small % of the population owning cars, traffic is hell, parking is hell, pollution is hell...why would you willingly add to that?

There are much more convenient ways to get around. The ONLY reason most people would have for getting a car is status/material lust driven by the multinationals. THAT is the problem. Others have begun to figure this out - that's why some wealthy European countries are down to 50% car ownership and dropping. And they could go further - it is EASY to reduce pollution levels by 50%, and possible to do it by 90%. Impossible to do the same to population.

And even if you magically kept population down, aren't the rich people going to just make it up by consuming twice as much anyway? Without a change in the current pro-consumption climate, is there any limit to what the wealthy will consume? Limit population, and the wealthy will more than make up for it. China has limited population, India hasn't, but China's emissions are growing faster than India's are.

I don't know how much traveling you have done, but outside cities with highly advanced mass transit systems cars are ALWAYS the most convenient way to get around, has nothing to do with status/material lust. That's why Uber and Baidu and Didi are so big in Asia. The solution would be electric cars, but right now Tesla is surviving mainly due to government subsidies. The real solution would be for society to regress back to hunter/gatherer mode, but you would be hung in the middle of Times Square before that happens

 

[Professor Emeritus]

As far as selling off raw materials to build infrastructure, again, it's stupid planning. That stuff is irreplaceable. You don't give any of it up without careful planning. Too easy, too prone to quick short-term profits and corruption, too little local employment, and it's GONE forever when you sell it.

Look at post-war Germany, or Korea, or Finland, or Japan. Did they rebuild their countries with raw materials profits? No, they developed from the ground up. Take away corruption, and there is MORE than enough money in these countries for infrastructure. But adding more oil profits encourages corruption much better than it encourages long-term future planning.

If you're really struggling to afford your own development, then you contract. Tell the multinational,"You can develop this field, we will pay costs and a reasonable profit, and you will produce the oil for us." Don't sell outside until you have end-line, value-added products above and beyond what your own people need. Don't give up anything unless you are energy-independent and food-independent first AND can guarantee that perpetually.

And if you claim that they won't let you do that because THEY don't want you to be self sufficient, then why the hell you playing their game? You can find one company in the world that will do it (doesn't have to be West, plenty of oil nations have built some of their own stuff now), and if not, you blackmail them with refusal to sell them your oil under any circumstances. If they realize how important controlling raw materials is, why the hell you playing their game and giving in to them?

 

[Cynic]

1) Except that funding your nation by selling off all your irreplaceable natural raw materials for quick cash now is a stupid move, both logically and historically.

2) Have you seen what the pollution looks like in Chinese and Indian cities? People already dying by the bucketload of all sorts of diseases that are exacerbated by that, and they're going to make it worse?

3) People who want to pretend that rising CO2 levels aren't real, or don't matter, have their heads in the sand.

1) They don't give a fukk... talk to nigerians both civilians and government officials. Corruption is culture there

2) Who cares ? There is a price for development. Smog death is part of the process

3) Again, why give a f*ck ? This planet will outlive us and reset if necessary.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I don't know how much traveling you have done, but outside cities with highly advanced mass transit systems cars are ALWAYS the most convenient way to get around, has nothing to do with status/material lust. That's why Uber and Baidu and Didi are so big in Asia. The solution would be electric cars, but right now Tesla is surviving mainly due to government subsidies. The real solution would be for society to regress back to hunter/gatherer mode, but you would be hung in the middle of Times Square bef

You should probably read the recent travel threads on the very places in question before making condescending statements.

Über is a good way to massively reduce the number of people who need cars. The counties in question already have natural gas vehicles that produce less emissions than traditional oil-based cars, and could easily go much further in that direction. Electric public-transport vehicles are already on the street too, and there's absolutely nothing keeping them from being used for personal movement except status and advertising.

Most people almost never leave their own city or village. The times they do, there are plenty of options. If there is demand, the need fills with a public option quickly, due to population density. There is literally no need whatsoever for 90% of people to own private transport, and I have 5+ years in the Global South to back me up on this. And when you do need it, like I said, natural has and electric options are already around.

Take out multinational car, steel, and oil companies and their lobbying and advertising, and we ain't even having this conversation.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

1) They don't give a fukk... talk to nigerians both civilians and government officials. Corruption is culture there

2) Who cares ? There is a price for development. Smog death is part of the process

3) Again, why give a f*ck ? This planet will outlive us and reset if necessary.

Pretty much the perfect response.

"Let's do stupid self-destructive stuff...because who cares?"

 

[blackzeus]

You should probably read the recent travel threads on the very places in question before making condescending statements.

Über is a good way to massively reduce the number of people who need cars. The counties in question already have natural gas vehicles that produce less emissions than traditional oil-based cars, and could easily go much further in that direction. Electric public-transport vehicles are already on the street too, and there's absolutely nothing keeping them from being used for personal movement except status and advertising.

Most people almost never leave their own city or village. The times they do, there are plenty of options. If there is demand, the need fills with a public option quickly, due to population density. There is literally no need whatsoever for 90% of people to own private transport, and I have 5+ years in the Global South to back me up on this. And when you do need it, like I said, natural has and electric options are already around.

Take out multinational car, steel, and oil companies and their lobbying and advertising, and we ain't even having this conversation.

breh you flipped from "cars are not needed" to "natural gas vehicles" REAL quick and smooth like You basically admitted cars are needed, which is contrary to your previous post, and in agreement with mine, making you sound like a very confused hippy

 

[Cynic]

Pretty much the perfect response.

"Let's do stupid self-destructive shyt...because who cares?"

There is a price to pay for development....

Fukk your feelings

 

[Bea__13]

Nah, China is actually cutting Venezuela off from any more loans, likely because they don't believe they'll pay it back.

Could also be Venezuela doesnt have a lot of what China wants , compared to a lot of African Countries who probably wont be able to pay them back either. Its just Africa has so many resources they need , they probably dont care when or if African countries pay them.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

breh you flipped from "cars are not needed" to "natural gas vehicles" REAL quick and smooth like You basically admitted cars are needed, which is contrary to your previous post, and in agreement with mine, making you sound like a very confused hippy

I said right there in that post that MOST people do not need cars. Those who do, largely can use natural gas or electric. Your post claimed 2/3 of the population driving oil-based vehicles, which isn't even true in parts of Europe and would be downright stupid in India/China.

The vast majority of people in densely populated nations will never need cars. The primary reason to get them will always be status and marketing.

If you believe differently, then tell me, what are the 95% of people without cars missing out on right now? What is the new need that suddenly requires a car in their lives?

There is a price to pay for development....

Fukk your feelings

I'm just posting logic. Ya'all are the ones who sound up in your feelings.

Your only argument has been "you're wrong, F you."

You wanna look like you know what you're talking about, you gotta come wit more than that.


Here's how bad the logic is. Ya'all coming with, "Massive, unsustainable raw material exploitation is necessary for development." But then you have poor countries selling off their raw materials to India/China BEFORE those countries have themselves developed. You think all this stuff magically keeps coming out of the ground forever?

If you sit around selling off unreplaceable natural resources to countries already ahead of you in the game, you think those countries will just return the favor later when you're trying to catch up and everything is MORE scarce than it is today?

 

[Cynic]

I




I'm just posting logic. Ya'all are the ones who sound up in your feelings.

Your only argument has been "you're wrong, F you."

You wanna look like you know what you're talking about, you gotta come wit more than that.


Here's how bad the logic is. Ya'all coming with, "Massive, unsustainable raw material exploitation is necessary for development." But then you have poor countries selling off their raw materials to India/China BEFORE those countries have themselves developed. You think all this stuff magically keeps coming out of the ground forever?

If you sit around selling off unreplaceable natural resources to countries already ahead of you in the game, you think those countries will just return the favor later when you're trying to catch up and everything is MORE scarce than it is today?

Actually it's you who has a gaping hole in your train of thought....

As long as Saudi is beefing with Iran ...low oil prices will hurt oil dependent economies

These countries have literally no choice but to sell oil... or no money comes in

Get it ?

You expect Venezuela and Nigeria to sit on oil and export what breh ?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Actually it's you who has a gaping hole in your train of thought....

As long as Saudi is beefing with Iran ...low oil prices will hurt oil dependent economies

These countries have literally no choice but to sell oil... or no money comes in

Get it ?

You expect Venezuela and Nigeria to sit on oil and export what breh ?

You're making me realize that you either know nothing about Nigeria, or you are trolling to teach others a lesson.

Nigeria is a large nation with some of the best agricultural land in Africa and a real manufacturing sector. They were exporting all sorts of stuff before. But reliance on oil for quick cash ruined that - now they have to import food and manufactured goods, when they used to be a net exporter.

They've been selling off their oil for 50 years - when's it going to magically start developing their country? Per-capita GDP is lower than it was in the 1960s and half the country is poor. There's been improvement in the last decade, but it's come from the kind of reforms and internal production focus I'm talking about, NOT from oil money. The oil exports don't make other sectors stronger, they make them WORSE.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Since there seems to be a lot of ignorance here, maybe we need a few Wikipedia excerpts just for basic starters.

The oil boom of the 1970s led Nigeria to neglect its strong agricultural and light manufacturing bases in favor of an unhealthy dependence on crude oil. In 2000, oil and gas exports accounted for more than 98% of export earnings and about 83% of federal government revenue. New oil wealth, the concurrent decline of other economic sectors, and a lurch toward a statist economic model fueled massive migration to the cities and led to increasingly widespread poverty, especially in rural areas.

A collapse of basic infrastructure and social services since the early 1980s accompanied this trend. By 2000, Nigeria's per capita income had plunged to about one-quarter of its mid-1970s high, below the level at independence. Along with the endemic malaise of Nigeria's non-oil sectors, the economy continues to witness massive growth of "informal sector" economic activities, estimated by some to be as high as 75% of the total economy.

Nigeria's proven oil reserves are estimated to be 35 billion barrels (5.6×109 m3); natural gas reserves are well over 100 trillion cubic feet (2,800 km3). Nigeria is a member of OPEC. The types of crude oil exported by Nigeria are Bonny light oil, Forcados crude oil, Qua Ibo crude oil and Brass River crude oil. Poor corporate relations with indigenous communities, vandalism of oil infrastructure, severe ecological damage, and personal security problems throughout the Niger Deltaoil-producing region continue to plague Nigeria's oil sector.

Oil dependency, and the allure it generated of great wealth through government contracts, spawned other economic distortions. The country's high propensity to import means roughly 80% of government expenditures is recycled into foreign exchange. Cheap consumer imports, resulting from a chronically overvaluedNaira, coupled with excessively highdomestic production costs due in part to erratic electricity and fuel supply, pushed down utilization of industrial capacity to less than 30%. Many more Nigerian factories would have closed except for relatively low labor costs (10%–15%). Domestic manufacturers, especially pharmaceuticals and textiles, have lost their ability to compete in traditional regional markets. However, there are signs that some manufacturers have begun to improve competitiveness.

Agriculture has suffered from years of mismanagement, inconsistent and poorly conceived government policies, neglect and the lack of basic infrastructure. Still, the sector accounts for over 26.8% of GDP and two-thirds of employment. Nigeria has 19 million head of cattle, the largest in Africa. Nigeria is no longer a major exporter of cocoa, groundnuts (peanuts), rubber, and palm oil. Cocoa production, mostly from obsolete varieties and overage trees, has nevertheless increased from around 180,000 tons annually to 350,000 tons.

A dramatic decline in groundnut and palm oil production also has taken place. Once the biggest poultry producer in Africa, corporate poultry output has been slashed from 40 million birds annually to about 18 million. Import constraints limit the availability of many agricultural and food processing inputs for poultry and other sectors. Fisheries are poorly managed. Most critical for the country's future, Nigeria's land tenure system does not encourage long-term investment in technology or modern production methods and does not inspire the availability of rural credit.

Ya'all should probably stop taking your assumptions from oil consumers and multinationals trying to profit off the natural wealth of more desperate nations at the expense of those nations' own people, resources, and industry.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

This is not necessarily a good thing at all.
Venezuela and Nigeria are on these crippled-ISI models right now, they both need to be weaned off of their oil revenue dependency and diversify their economies, as well as remove the corruption barriers that are making their fake neo-liberal models fail so spectacularly.
India should be moving toward a green energy conversion, they have the man and brain power for it.

That's what I'm trying to explain to these guys, but it's like they take talking points from Big Oil and corrupt governments.