How the Quran was formed. (Historical Breakdown)

[Koichos]

INTERESTING!

How do we know when the final one has arrived?

Well perhaps the most notable prophecy central to the King-Mashiyaħ’s ‘job description’ is his presiding over the Third Temple building (Y'ħezḳel, chs. 40-43).

And who was the last “messiah”?

Tzidḳiyyahu ben Yoshiyyahu, the last Y'hudean king whom the Babylonian hordes took into exile.

Does the title King Mashiyaħ refer to the LAST or a SPECIFIC PERSON in this succession of Kings/Rulers?

The terms הַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ hamelech hamashiyaħ (‘the King-Mashiyah’) or simply הַמָּשִׁיחַ hamashiyah (‘the Mashiyaħ’) are confined to the promised future king.

Can an ARAB be a “Messiah”?

No, because מָשִׁיחַ mashiyaħ (a ‘messiah’) is a person who has been מָשׁוּחַ mashu'aħ (‘smeared’) with the שֶׁמֶן מִשְׁחַת קֺדֶשׁ shemen mishħat ḳοdesh (‘smearing of sanctity oil’) by a Jewish prophet in accordance with the Tοrah’s instructions in Sh'mοt 30:22-33. And this spiced-oil mixture is NEVER to come into contact with a gentile. Besides, the ‘messiah’ is going to be a king of Yisra´el which means, by definition, that he has to be Jewish. It is explicitly commanded in D'varim 17:15.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Well perhaps the most notable prophecy central to the King-Mashiyaħs ‘job description’ is his presiding over the Third Temple building (Y'ħezḳel, chs. 40-43).


Tzidḳiyyahu ben Yoshiyyahu, the last Y'hudean king whom the Babylonian hordes took into exile.


The terms הַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ hamelech hamashiyaħ (‘the King-Mashiyah’) or simply הַמָּשִׁיחַ hamashiyah (‘the Mashiyaħ’) are confined to the promised future king.


No, because מָשִׁיחַ mashiyaħ (a ‘messiah’) is a person who has been מָשׁוּחַ mashu'aħ (‘smeared’) with the שֶׁמֶן מִשְׁחַת קֺדֶשׁ shemen mishħat ḳοdesh (‘smearing of sanctity oil’) by a Jewish prophet in accordance with the Tοrah’s instructions in Sh'mοt 30:22-33. And this spiced-oil mixture is NEVER to come into contact with a gentile. Besides, the ‘messiah’ is going to be a king of Yisra´el which means, by definition, that he has to be Jewish. It is explicitly commanded in D'varim 17:15.

Oh, so it’s a prophecy confined to a specific moment in time/time window on a sliding scale?

When did the idea of the final King-Mashiyaħ first appear in scripture or Jewish teaching?

And is this messiah meant to be immortal since he will be the last one and rule forever?

 

[Koichos]

Oh, so it’s a prophecy confined to a specific moment in time/time window on a sliding scale?

As the Ramba"m says in the twelfth of the Thirteen Principles into which he condensed the essence of Judaism,

אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה בְּבִיאַת הַמָּשִֽׁיחַ, וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיִּתְמַהְמֵֽהַּ עִם כׇּל זֶה אַחֲכֶּה לּוֹ בְּכׇל יוֹם שֶׁיָּבוֹא׃​

I firmly believe in the coming of the Mashiyaħ and although he is delayed, even so I will still anticipate his arrival each and every day.

When did the idea of the final King-Mashiyaħ first appear in scripture or Jewish teaching?

The idea that there will be a specific individual—a direct descendant of the Biblical royal bloodline—who will bring all this about, is fundamental to the Tana"ch:

...אֶרְאֶ֨נּוּ֙ וְלֹ֣א עַתָּ֔ה אֲשׁוּרֶ֖נּוּ וְלֹ֣א קָר֑וֹב​

I see him, but not now; I look upon him, but he is not close... (B'midbar 24:17)

And is this messiah meant to be immortal since he will be the last one and rule forever?

The Ramba"m ended his Mishneh Tοrah with two chapters dealing with the King-Mashiyaħ which, in my opinion, should be compulsory reading; there, he says:

וְאִם לֹא הִצְלִֽיחַ עַד כֹּה, אוֹ נֶהְרַג - בַּיָּדֽוּעַ שְׁאֵינוּ זֶה שֶׁהִבְטִיחָה עָלָיו תּוֹרָה, וַהֲרֵי הוּא כְּכׇל מַלְכֵי בֵּית דָּוִיד הַשְּׁלֵמִים הַכְּשֵׁרִים שֶׁמֵּתוּ. וְלֹא הִעְמִידוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא אֵלָא לְנַסּוֹת בּוֹ רַבִּים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "וּמִן־הַמַּשְׂכִּילִ֣ים יִכָּֽשְׁל֗וּ לִצְר֥וֹף בָּהֶ֛ם וּלְבָרֵ֥ר וְלַלְבֵּ֖ן עַד־עֵ֣ת קֵ֑ץ כִּי־ע֖וֹד לַמּוֹעֵֽד"׃​

But if he does not succeed in accomplishing all these things, or if he is killed, then for sure he is not the one promised by the Tοrah and he should just be considered like any of the other legitimate kings of the Davidic dynasty who lived and died, and we may conclude that God caused him to arise only to test people’s faith, as it is written (Daniyyel 11:35): ‘...even some of the wise will err in their attempts to clarify the predictions, to explain them and to interpret them... until the End, because its time is yet to be fixed.’ (Ramba"m, Hilchοt ‘M'lachim uMilħamοt’ §11:9)

 

[DoubleClutch]

As the Ramba"m says in the twelfth of the Thirteen Principles into which he condensed the essence of Judaism,



The idea that there will be a specific individual—a direct descendant of the Biblical royal bloodline—who will bring all this about, is fundamental to the Tana"ch:



The Ramba"m ended his Mishneh Tοrah with two chapters dealing with the King-Mashiyaħ which, in my opinion, should be compulsory reading; there, he says:

So basically the messiah “is in the eye of the beholder”

“he should just be considered like any of the other legitimate kings of the Davidicdynasty who lived and died, and we may conclude that God caused him to arise only to test people’s faith, as it is written (Daniyyel 11:35)”

What does this mean?

 

[Koichos]

So basically the messiah “is in the eye of the beholder”

The messiah is an objective reality, but Judaism isn’t a belief system built around the messiah, who is actually only a peripheral figure in terms of the everyday life of the Jew. The actual individual has never been the focus for us and even his name is never specified: the tasks he is to accomplish have always been far more significant than who he is.

וּכְשֶׁיַּעֲמֹד הַמֶּֽלֶךְ הַמָּשִֽׁיחַ בֶּאֱמֶת וְיַצְלִֽיחַ וְיָרוֹם וְיִנָּשֵׂא, מִיָּד הֶם כֻּלָּן חוֹזְרִין וְיוֹדְעִים שֶׁשֶּֽׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵֽיהֶם, וְשֶׁנְּבִיאֵֽיהֶם וַאֲבוֹתֵֽיהֶם הִטְעוּם׃​

But when the real King-Mashiyaħ arises and becomes successful, exalted and uplifted—right away all of them will realize their mistake and then they will understand that the teaching passed down to them from their ancestors was false and that their ‘prophets’ and their ancestors misled them [compare Yirm'yah 16:19].” (Ramba"m, Hilchοt ‘M'lachim uMilħamοt’ §11:13)

“he should just be considered like any of the other legitimate kings of the Davidicdynasty who lived and died, and we may conclude that God caused him to arise only to test people’s faith, as it is written (Daniyyel 11:35)”

What does this mean?

By dying, or not accomplishing the tasks foretold in the Tana"ch, such individuals are no different than any of the ancient Jewish kings and thus cannot be ‘the’ messiah. The Tοrah in D'varim 13:2-6 does say that false prophets will perform miracles as a test of faith. And the noun נֵס nes (‘a miracle’) has the same root as לְנַסּוֺת l'nassοt (‘to test’)!

 

[DoubleClutch]

The messiah is an objective reality, but Judaism isn’t a belief system built around the messiah, who is actually only a peripheral figure in terms of the everyday life of the Jew. The actual individual has never been the focus for us and even his name is never specified: the tasks he is to accomplish have always been far more significant than who he is.



By dying, or not accomplishing the tasks foretold in the Tana"ch, such individuals are no different than any of the ancient Jewish kings and thus cannot be ‘the’ messiah. The Tοrah in D'varim 13:2-6 does say that false prophets will perform miracles as a test of faith. And the noun נֵס nes (‘a miracle’) has the same root as לְנַסּוֺת l'nassοt (‘to test’)!

Wow I’ve never heard this type of explanation

So false messiahs are given power to do miracles by God NOT to deceive people but to test the faith of those expecting the messiah?

I thought the idea of an anti christ/false prophet was only a Christian concept

But you have a issue

Islam is strictly against Jesus death & resurrection according to the Quran

However Muslims claim to believe in the same God as Judaism

So which is it?

Historically what happened is meant to be understood as:

A test of faith for Jews?

or

Christians creating a false narrative about Jesus crucifixion, death & resurrection because God made it “appear to happen”

Either way God is indirectly to blame for the rise and success of Christianity (a religion started by those “deceived by Jesus”)

 

[Koichos]

Wow I’ve never heard this type of explanation

So false messiahs are given power to do miracles by God NOT to deceive people but to test the faith of those expecting the messiah?

False prophets; Yeshu and Muħammad, for example, have only served to prepare the way for the arrival of the King-Mashiyaħ.

I thought the idea of an anti christ/false prophet was only a Christian concept

There isn’t any ‘anti-messiah’ (the Greek word from which ‘christ’ derives is just the translation of מָשִׁיחַ mashiyaħ) anywhere in the Tοrah or Nach.

But you have a issue

Islam is strictly against Jesus death & resurrection according to the Quran

However Muslims claim to believe in the same God as Judaism

So which is it?

One can believe in the Deity a person is referring to, without believing in what the person is saying.

Historically what happened is meant to be understood as:

A test of faith for Jews?

or

Christians creating a false narrative about Jesus crucifixion, death & resurrection because God made it “appear to happen”

Either way God is indirectly to blame for the rise and success of Christianity (a religion started by those “deceived by Jesus”)

The answer to your question can be found in the last chapter of the Ramba"m’s Mishneh Torah:

וְכׇל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵֽלּוּ שֶׁלְּיֵשׁוּעַ הַנּוֹצְרִי וְשֶׁלְּזֶה הַיִּשְׁמְעֵאלִי שֶׁעָמַד אַחֲרָיו אֵינָן אֶלָא לְיַשַּׁר דֶּֽרֶך לַמֶּֽלֶךְ הַמָּשִֽׁיחַ וּלְתַקַּן אֶת הָעוֹלָם כֻּלּוֹ לַעֲבֹד אֶת יְדֹוָה בְּיַֽחַד, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "כִּי־אָ֛ז אֶהְפֹּ֥ךְ אֶל־עַמִּ֖ים שָׂפָ֣ה בְרוּרָ֑ה לִקְרֹ֤א כֻלָּם֙ בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְדֹוָ֔ה לְעָבְד֖וֹ שְׁכֶ֥ם אֶחָֽד׃" כֵּיצַד? כְּבָר נִתְמַלָּא הָעוֹלָם כֻּלּוֹ מִדִּבְרֵי הַמָּשִֽׁיחַ וּמִדִּבְרֵי הַתּוֹרָה וּמִדִּבְרֵי הַמִּצְווֺת, וּפָשְׁטוּ דְּבָרִים אֵֽלּוּ בְּאִיִּים רְחוֹקִים וּבְעַמִּים רַבִּים עַרְלֵי־לֵב, וְהֶם נוֹשְׂאִים וְנוֹתְנִים בִּדְבָרִים אֵֽלּוּ וּבְמִצְווֺת הַתּוֹרָה. אֵֽלּוּ אוֹמְרִים "מִצְווֺת אֵֽלּוּ אֱמֶת הָיוּ וּכְבָר בָּטְלוּ בַּזְּמָן הַזֶּה וְלֹא הָיוּ נוֹהֲגוֹת לְדוֹרוֹת". וְאֵֽלּוּ אוֹמְרִים "דְּבָרִים נִסְתָּרוֹת יֵשׁ בָּהֶם וְאֵינָן כִּפְשׁוּטָן, וּכְבָר בָּא מָשִֽׁיחַ וְגִלָּה נִסְתָּרֵֽיהֶם". וּכְשֶׁיַּעֲמֹד הַמֶּֽלֶךְ הַמָּשִֽׁיחַ בֶּאֱמֶת וְיַצְלִֽיחִ וְיָרוֹם וְיִנָּשֵׂא, מִיָּד הֶם כֻּלָּן חוֹזְרִין וְיוֹדְעִים שֶׁשֶּֽׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵֽיהֶם וְשֶׁנְּבִיאֵֽיהֶם וַאֲבוֹתֵֽיהֶם הִטְעוּם׃​

All these words of Yeshu the Nοtzri (Jesus of Nazareth) and of that Yishm`eli who arose after him [i.e., Muħammad] have only served to prepare the way for the arrival of the King-Mashiyaħ, leading the whole World to serve Adοnai together, as it is written: ‘...for then I shall turn all the nations back to speaking the “pure language” [i.e., Hebrew], so that they will all proclaim Adοnai’s Fame and serve Him with a single purpose’ (Tz'fanyah 3:9). But how can that be?—Consider this: the entire World is already filled with talk about a ‘Messiah’, and about the Tοrah, and about the Mitzvοt. So it has come about that these concepts have been spread to the furthest parts of the World and even among the pagan, idolatrous nations who, right now, are discussing these topics and the Tοrah’s Mitzvοt.
Some of them [i.e., the christians] are saying that the Mitzvοt were true, but have now been abolished as they were never intended to remain in force forever, while others [i.e., the muslims] are saying that they contain hidden mysteries and are not to be interpreted literally, but that a ‘messiah’ [i.e. Muhammad] already came and revealed these secrets.
However, when the true King-Mashiyaħ comes to power and succeeds in becoming exalted and uplifted—right away they will all realize their mistake and understand that the teaching passed down to them from their ancestors was false and that their ‘prophets’ and their ancestors misled them [compare Yirm'yah 16:19].” (Ramba"m, Hilchοt ‘M'lachim uMilħamοt’ §11:11-13)

 

[DoubleClutch]

False prophets; Yeshu and Muħammad, for example, have only served to prepare the way for the arrival of the King-Mashiyaħ.

One can believe in the Deity a person is referring to, without believing in what the person is saying.

The problem you have with beliefs like these is you insinuate God is “playing both sides of field” per say

And he is deceiving one side deliberately.

Of course it makes sense to you in hindsight, but did two “false prophets” need to come and be so successful they birth the worlds two biggest religions in order to get the point across?

And it’s not an issue of Muslims BELIEVING or saying they believe in your or my GOD,

It’s that their understanding or teachings come directly from that SAME God who in this case is the author of the Quran/Hadiths

You can’t believe this ^^^^^^^

And even more so that God or “ALLAH” is “guiding” them for his purposes

In your point of view, the purpose would be to deceive the world just for the benefit of Jews?

You think Islam is a necessary evil it seems to me in which Muslims are being used by God.

I think they are deceived by Man (you say a false prophet) or at worst something inherently evil or ANTI GOD but nonetheless clearly anti Jesus according to basic historical facts

So to put Muhammad and Jesus in the same group as false prophets working together doesn’t make sense

It’s a contradiction because Muhammad and his teachings (those which define Islam today) is a direct response and opposition to Christianity

False prophets don’t try to cancel each other out. Especially if both are sent by evil according to your religious worldview

Now one thing for you to consider (as a practicer of Judaism) is, why both “false” prophets were critical of Jews and the Judaism of the time, what’s the purpose in that?

When considering all prophets sent to Israel in Judaism were critical and warned of Gods judgement.

Meanwhile both Jesus and “Muhammad” agree God is one and that Israel (the people and the land) are the chosen people set apart by God.

What makes them false (well we know why the Quran is false) or evil?

You can’t pick and choose what to believe as it fits your beliefs and narratives or fits into your end times/messiah scenario

That’s exactly where the proto Muslims went wrong and ultimately created an entirely new religion out of Christianity

That’s why I say the idea of the “messiah” was so ambiguous and flexible with the times it became in the “eye of the beholder” and basically anything goes

The most believable option is that Jesus was/is the messiah. Only ONE Messiah

 

[merklman]

False prophets; Yeshu and Muħammad, for example, have only served to prepare the way for the arrival of the King-Mashiyaħ.

Not false prophets, more so the folks following false gods, where their own text describes it directly (well, who knows what the correct text is considering there are dozens of different contradictory versions ) . . .

21 Some people say to me, “Master, Master!” But not all of them will come into the kingdom of heaven. Only the people who obey God, my Father in heaven, will come in. They do what he wants them to do. 22 On the day when God judges people, many of them will say, “Master, Master! We used your authority and we spoke a message from you. We used your authority and we sent bad spirits out of people. We used your authority to do many powerful things.” 23 But I will say to these people, “I never knew you. You do not obey God. You are bad. So go away from me.” 

 

[Ethnic Vagina Finder]

The Prophet jacked Hebrew culture/religion (Judaism), took it back to Arabia, formed his own religion and the rest is history.

 

[Gains]

The problem you have with beliefs like these is you insinuate God is “playing both sides of field” per say

cool , sure , just wear a raincoat when orthodox jews start spitting on you

 

[DoubleClutch]

The Prophet jacked Hebrew culture/religion (Judaism), took it back to Arabia, formed his own religion and the rest is history.

Or he didn’t exist but jewish outcasts made him up and promoted an Arabized version of Jewish/Christianity to appease their Arabs friends (who came into military power and needed a Ishmaelite movement to believe in ) in hope of reclaiming the holy land

Arabs got too much power, started their own kingdoms, became racists imperialist bent on waging war and enslaving non Arabs and THEN they hijacked the religion for legitimacy, changed it enough to make it “new” and forced everyone to convert or die, which included the worship of their imaginary prophet (who by this time they had created an elaborate history and collection of stories about) who gave them their holy “book”

A book mind you which already existed as fragments of Jewish & Christian documents and stories that existed from previous attempts to convert Arab pagans centuries before

 

[Ethnic Vagina Finder]

Or he didn’t exist but jewish outcasts made him up and promoted an Arabized version of Jewish/Christianity to appease their Arabs friends (who came into military power and needed a Ishmaelite movement to believe in ) in hope of reclaiming the holy land

Arabs got too much power, started their own kingdoms, became racists imperialist bent on waging war and enslaving non Arabs and THEN they hijacked the religion for legitimacy, changed it enough to make it “new” and forced everyone to convert or die, which included the worship of their imaginary prophet (who by this time they had created an elaborate history and collection of stories about) who gave them their holy “book”

A book mind you which already existed as fragments of Jewish & Christian documents and stories that existed from previous attempts to convert Arab pagans centuries before

Timeline don't add up. Black Hebrew Israelites were in Palestine/Jordan. Every other modern Arab country worshiped multiple gods. Black/Arab Hebrew's were the only monotheist society in that region until Islam came and converted every arab nation. Some Hebrews left and birthed fake cac german gews but most of them stayed in Palestine converting to Islam. And because Muslim erased Arab Hebrew culture, it was real easy for cac Europeans to say they were their first.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Timeline don't add up. Black Hebrew Israelites were in Palestine/Jordan. Every other modern Arab country worshiped multiple gods. Black/Arab Hebrew's were the only monotheist society in that region until Islam came and converted every arab nation. Some Hebrews left and birthed fake cac german gews but most of them stayed in Palestine converting to Islam. And because Muslim erased Arab Hebrew culture, it was real easy for cac Europeans to say they were their first.

You got half of it right

But there’s no such thing as “black Hebrew Israelites”

They were Jews (two types) Messianic Jews, early Arab/ethiopian/gentile Christians or many other Christian sects and scattered Arab pagans goddess/angel/rock worshiping tribes and Persian Zoroaster fire worshipers

There was probably no idea of black and white
At the time

Until arabization began and Islam became a white man’s religion which started with the Northern European Arab Persian Christians and spread to conquer the black people of the south and into neighboring Africa/and North Africa.

They raped, enslaved mixed and created an “Arab” identity and culture from taking and absorbing the beliefs, customs and culture of those they conquered.

Packaged it all up into the term “Arab” and labeled the region the “Islamic world”

Oh and they had to make Muhammad white just like they made sure Jesus was white later.

But original culture was well protected and never erased BECAUSE of Islam was there to make that distinction between the Jews (who they hated) and the ARAB Muslims (Ishmaelites) who were to be the new “chosen people”

You see Muslims/arabs can only have an identity through their relationship to Israel and Jews.

There was really no “Arab” or Ishmaelite identity before people decided to break away from Judaism and take a stance against the Jews

 

[Ethnic Vagina Finder]

You got half of it right

But there’s no such thing as “black Hebrew Israelites”

They were Jews (two types) Messianic Jews, early Arab/ethiopian/gentile Christians or many other Christian sects and scattered Arab pagans goddess/angel/rock worshiping tribes and Persian Zoroaster fire worshipers

There was probably no idea of black and white
At the time

Until arabization began and Islam became a white man’s religion which started with the Northern European Arab Persian Christians and spread to conquer the black people of the south and into neighboring Africa/and North Africa.

They raped, enslaved mixed and created an “Arab” identity and culture from taking and absorbing the beliefs, customs and culture of those they conquered.

Packaged it all up into the term “Arab” and labeled the region the “Islamic world”

Oh and they had to make Muhammad white just like they made sure Jesus was white later.

But original culture was well protected and never erased BECAUSE of Islam was there to make that distinction between the Jews (who they hated) and the ARAB Muslims (Ishmaelites) who were to be the new “chosen people”

You see Muslims/arabs can only have an identity through their relationship to Israel and Jews.

There was really no “Arab” or Ishmaelite identity before people decided to break away from Judaism and take a stance against the Jews

There were no white people in that region. Everyone had dark skin. Dark skin = black. There were African and Arab populations. The Hebrew language predates Judaism and Christianity. Then the language switched to Aramaic, then Arabic. Judaism started in Palestine/Jordan. Then Islam spread and converted the population. Some Hebrews fled to Europe and started mixing with CAC which birthed Ashkenazi Jews and the monstrosity we have today.
Modern day Palestinians are linked to the Ancient Hebrews and the tribes of Judah, but since an Israeli cac from Poland's great great great great great great aunt could've fukked a Hebrew and had a baby, She can now claim her entire bloodline started in Palestine.