how could you be against socialism/communism as a black person

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for decades, the innovation in science and technology was facilitated by the use of government funds that saw the public subsidize the military industrial complex, which then awarded corporations the opportunity to privatize the profits from what its effort created.

it’s been a scheme they’ve ran since world war 2. america IS a socialist country, perhaps the most socialist in all human history.

that is, it’s a socialist state for the wealthy.

:unimpressed:
 

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Black socialists who worked hard to do good for the Black community:


Peter H. Clark
W.E.B. DuBois
A. Phillip Randolph
Chandler Owens
Claude McKay
Hubert Harrison
C. L. R. James
Frank Crosswaith
Paul Robeson
Julius Nyerere
Kwame Nkrumah
Léopold Senghor
Ella Baker
Bayard Rustin
James Farmer
Fanny Lou Hamer
Martin Luther King Jr.
Malcolm X
James Baldwin
Stokely Carmichael/Kwame Turé
Huey P. Newton
Angela Davis
Fred Hampton



Now, make the comparable list of anti-socialists from the Black community who contributed to the same extent. :comeon:


You can agree or disagree with the men and women in that list. But if you don't know half as much about socialism as they did, and yet just have a kneejerk reaction that tells you to oppose it, then you have to consider whether you're so much smarter than them that you don't have to take their position seriously, or whether maybe you've grown up under a little bit too much American propaganda.
 

Scustin Bieburr

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I'm against socialism and communism because literally every time someone tries to actually put it into place they just end up recreating monarchy or creating an authoritarian state which is still capitalist.

Soviet union? Just a rebrand of the Russian empire.
North Korea? Just a family cos playing as the Joseon dynasty.
China? Just a capitalist quasi-fascist state actively trying to recreate the old imperial borders.

I don't know enough about Cuba but it just seems to be a pseudo-democratic state.

The first thing these guys always do when they grab power is destroy the same trade unions that helped them gain it in the first place. So now when you're being oppressed by your boss, you can't take him to court. He's literally part of the government now so they'll call you a counter revolutionary and kill your ass or force you into a prison where you will be used as slave labor.

The USSR used a combination of slavery and culling the population to achieve technological parity with the rest of Europe and Asia. They caught up, but the cost was paid in literally millions of lives.



That's depressing though so let's play a game :krs:

Tell me how many of those worker owned companies are in countries that use socialist or communist branding.

Maybe that's unfair? Okay let's go by unionized labor then

Oh look, China has some unions :leon:

Oh wait, it's literally just one giant organization.

Well let's look a little closer maybe--
"...The ACFTU is the country's sole legally mandated trade union, with which all enterprise-level trade unions must be affiliated. There has been dispute over whether ACFTU is an independent trade union or a trade union at all."

:lupe:

"The International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (now the International Trade Union Confederation) maintains the position that the ACFTU is not an independent union, stating in its policy:

There are differing approaches among ICFTU affiliates and Global Union Federations concerning contacts with the ACFTU ranging from "no contacts" to "constructive dialog." The ICFTU, noting that the ACFTU is not an independent trade union organization and, therefore, cannot be regarded as an authentic voice of Chinese workers, reaffirms its request to all affiliates and Global Union Federations having contacts with the Chinese authorities, including the ACFTU, to engage in critical dialog. This includes raising violations of fundamental workers' and trade union rights in any such meetings, especially concerning cases of detention of trade union and labor rights activists.[15]"



The answer is always MORE democracy not less. Company policy should be determined AFTER consultation with the staff and internal voting. Families should be run democratically so children don't grow up accepting paternalistic authoritarianism and become bytchmade adults who uncritically accept policies forced upon them instead of holding politicians accountable. If people grow up thinking they have a say in their home, a say in their school, and a say in their workplace, then they'll be engaged on local, state, and national levels when it comes to politics and you'll get policies that represent the interests of the people who make the functioning of the country possible rather than those who reap ridiculous profits(like the 56 billion a nazi sympathizer just got and will use to support a white supremacist who will cut his already low taxes even further and cut funding even further to regulatory bodies like the SEC and FTC)

Socialism and communism have to EVOLVE OUT OF the culture. You can't force it into a population because then what you just end up doing is recreating the structures people ALREADY KNOW. Its like how in almost every Sci fi story that is supposed to take place in the future they're using some kind of gun or sword as a weapon, and their economic system still involves heavily capitalist elements if not just straight up being capitalist. The reason the fiction reflects that, is because of a fundamental lack of imagination created and encouraged BY the status quo. People literally can't imagine a world without what they've grown up with. When a country becomes more democratic on a cultural as well as economic level(for example normalizing parents and children voting for what meal the family will eat, or voting on family vacation, or voting on chore rotation) you get people who have a severe revulsion to authoritarianism and concentration of power. When "your vote matters" actually means something, you will get a society that evolves from capitalism to socialism and then finally to anarchism where decisions are made by groups of people coming together.
 
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Professor Emeritus

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I'm against socialism and communism because literally every time someone tries to actually put it into place they just end up recreating monarchy or creating an authoritarian state which is still capitalist.

That isn't actually true. There have been plenty of times when popular socialist leaders have come to power, then were overthrown in Western-backed coups or wars. Just a partial list of leaders with socialist leanings who were overthrown or killed with US support include Mohammad Mosaddegh in Iran, Kwame Nkrumah in Ghana, Rafael Ángel Calderón in Costa Rica, Sukarno in Indonesia, Jacobo Árbenz in Guatemala, Norodom Sihanouk in Cambodia, Patrice Lumumba in Congo, Abdul-Karim Qasim in Iraq, João Goulart in Brazil, Salvador Allende in Chile, Juan José Torres in Bolivia, Jean-Bertrand Aristide in Haiti, the Sandinista front in Nicaragua, and Hudson Austin in Grenada. Some of those were more or less authoritarian and others were just regular democratically-elected governments who happened to be on the wrong ideological side to America. I didn't even include the ones who were overthrown with UK or French support, or the ones that weren't in power yet but were blocked from power with US interference.

The reason you only see the authoritarian ones as lasting is because those authoritarian ones used brutal methods to suppress/combat the Western interference.


Edit: I should be clear that outside interference isn't the only obstacle. Internal interference by powerful capitalist interests is profound as well. Just look in the USA, where any socialist who gained any degree of influence was persecuted by the government, brought up on false charges, demonized by the press, and in some cases even assassinated. Now image how much more that would happen in nations who don't even pretend to have the "rule of law". Look at what happened to Paul Robeson, MLK Jr., Malcolm X., Huey P. Newton, Angela Davis, Fred Hampton, etc.




The answer is always MORE democracy not less.

Neither socialism nor capitalism is inherently about democracy or anti-democracy. They're economic systems, not political systems. You can have the most free elections in the world and still be socialist, you can be the most ruthless dictator in the world and still be capitalist.

In fact, runaway capitalism virtually always undermines democracy, because once the wealth gaps become large enough, the wealthy will invariably control the processes of government even in a "democracy".
 
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cyndaquil

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The claim that capitalism drives innovation is capitalist propaganda. The vast majority of major scientific and technological innovations are made by people who get meagre profits if any from their work. Corporations are too focused on year-to-year profit margins to spend much money on R&D. Government-funded research and academic institutions have been responsible for far more major breakthroughs than for-profit companies ever have been.

Just look at any list of Nobel Prize winners, and tell me how many of them were working for universities or doing government-funded research as opposed to how many were on a corporation's payroll. There is the occasional private employee involved, but the # on the other side is FAR greater.



I agree that capitalism is what drives economic growth, but economic growth is literally destroying the world. Economic growth is a major factor behind environmental destruction, resource depletion, climate change, the corruption of government, and wars of aggression.
Not scientific innovation rather economic innovation. Rather new products to make money. And yes you are right economic growth is destroying the world but that argument doesn't move people to do anything about it because they want to live good and rich for themselves. A lot of people don't care because those are problems for future generations.
 

Still Benefited

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"Totalitarianism is a political system and a form of government that prohibits opposition political parties, disregards and outlaws the political claims of individual and group opposition to the state, and controls the public sphere and the private sphere of society. In the field of political science, totalitarianism is the extreme form of authoritarianism, wherein all socio-political power is held by a dictator, who also controls the national politics and the peoples of the nation with continual propaganda campaigns that are broadcast by state-controlled and by friendly private mass communications media.[1]"



People dont really have a good argument that this is bad. This is essentially America,except America picks and chooses when and who to give freedoms to. And alot of the people they give freedom too are the corrupt. Yall just immediately assume the level is at the max. Then imagine what totalitarinism would be like under the corrupt people we have as leaders now. Use your imagination, i can definitely imagine a utopia under totalitarinsm rule:wow:. Im only saying we need to turn up the level of control over citizens.

Theres countless things that could be done to save this country under totalitarinism leadership,as opposed to this half ass "democracy":respect:
 

Professor Emeritus

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Not scientific innovation rather economic innovation. Rather new products to make money. And yes you are right economic growth is destroying the world but that argument doesn't move people to do anything about it because they want to live good and rich for themselves. A lot of people don't care because those are problems for future generations.


So capitalism is good because it promotes capitalism? :russ:
 

cyndaquil

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So capitalism is good because it promotes capitalism? :russ:
No it's good when you're one of the haves vs have nots. It's good when you look at all the products you buy cuz a company puts out things people want in order to make money. It's bad when you are broke. Literally haves vs have nots.
But with the wealth gap being how it is now and increasing most people are have nots.
 

Adeptus Astartes

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"Totalitarianism is a political system and a form of government that prohibits opposition political parties, disregards and outlaws the political claims of individual and group opposition to the state, and controls the public sphere and the private sphere of society. In the field of political science, totalitarianism is the extreme form of authoritarianism, wherein all socio-political power is held by a dictator, who also controls the national politics and the peoples of the nation with continual propaganda campaigns that are broadcast by state-controlled and by friendly private mass communications media.[1]"



People dont really have a good argument that this is bad. This is essentially America,except America picks and chooses when and who to give freedoms to. And alot of the people they give freedom too are the corrupt. Yall just immediately assume the level is at the max. Then imagine what totalitarinism would be like under the corrupt people we have as leaders now. Use your imagination, i can definitely imagine a utopia under totalitarinsm rule:wow:. Im only saying we need to turn up the level of control over citizens.

Theres countless things that could be done to save this country under totalitarinism leadership,as opposed to this half ass "democracy":respect:
"People don't have an argument this is bad". Tell me you have never talked to someone that lived under Jim Crow.

"But my dictator will be a good dictator!" FOH. I keep saying there are too many nikkas out here who envy and covet white supremacy.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a rapist who stanned a cult leader is in favor of totalitarianism.
 

Art Barr

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How are you going to trust any ism welled in paganism created by a devil worshipper. Marxist. Who banned together with other dictators.

to create these systems.
Welled in tricknology.
Along with greco roman slash ares and hepatheus clandestined covert prostestant lifestyle and bias.


Art Barr
 

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Black socialists who worked hard to do good for the Black community:


Peter H. Clark
W.E.B. DuBois
A. Phillip Randolph
Chandler Owens
Claude McKay
Hubert Harrison
C. L. R. James
Frank Crosswaith
Paul Robeson
Julius Nyerere
Kwame Nkrumah
Léopold Senghor
Ella Baker
Bayard Rustin
James Farmer
Fanny Lou Hamer
Martin Luther King Jr.
Malcolm X
James Baldwin
Stokely Carmichael/Kwame Turé
Huey P. Newton
Angela Davis
Fred Hampton



Now, make the comparable list of anti-socialists from the Black community who contributed to the same extent. :comeon:


You can agree or disagree with the men and women in that list. But if you don't know half as much about socialism as they did, and yet just have a kneejerk reaction that tells you to oppose it, then you have to consider whether you're so much smarter than them that you don't have to take their position seriously, or whether maybe you've grown up under a little bit too much American propaganda.
There is a reason why socialism was a component of black liberation.
If someone talking pro-black and being a capitalist then you know he is on some shyt and is a grifter that'll be repeating right wing rhetoric
 

Still Benefited

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"People don't have an argument this is bad". Tell me you have never talked to someone that lived under Jim Crow.

"But my dictator will be a good dictator!" FOH. I keep saying there are too many nikkas out here who envy and covet white supremacy.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a rapist who stanned a cult leader is in favor of totalitarianism.


So Jim Crow happened under a totalitarian regime:mjlol:?


"I keep saying too many nikkas envy and covet white supremacy"


As you live in the country that is the HEART of white supremacy that isnt totalitarian. You are an admitted apologist for the system that fuels white supremacy.

Nope. I'm an apologist for capitalism, if anything. Move to China or any other Communist country if you believe it to he superior. No skin off my back. :yeshrug:


Its apparent youve been institutionalized from living in this zoo structure created by the European,under their propaganda. You have been dismissed,your feelings are starting to show#Emotional:respect:
 

Sauce and Footwork

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People act as if black people don’t live in these countries. lol. Literally spoke to a black Cuban talking about how hard life was there due To communism . Black coworker had the nerve to repeat this sentiment to them and they went off. No opportunities , just everybody poor together , while the government prospers
 
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