God the original liar?

[Koichos]

Consider M'lachim A 2:37,42 where בְּיוֺם occurs in conjunction with מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ concerning Shim`iy’s confinement to Y'rushala'im on the orders of King Sh'lοmοh.

Did Shim`iy defy orders and leave Y'rushala'im? Yes, he did.
But did he really end up dying ‘on that day’? No, he did not.

מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ is an idiomatic usage akin to ‘a dead man walking’ in American parlance. So too, in this passage, were Adam and Havvah subject to death ‘on that day’.

Incidentally, the ‘doubling’ of the verb מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ at the end of verse 17 mirrors the corresponding verb אָכֺֿל תֺּאֿכֵֿל at the end of verse 16, forming a natural couplet.

וַיְצַו֙ יְיׇ֣ אֱלֹקִ֔ים עַל־הָֽאָדָֿ֖ם לֵאֿמֹ֑ר מִכֹּ֥ל עֵֽץ־הַגָּ֖ן אָכֹֿ֥ל תֹּאֿכֵֽֿל׃
וּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֨עַת֙ ט֣וֹבֿ וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹֿאֿכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּי֛וֹם אֲכָֿלְךָֿ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מ֥וֹתֿ תָּמֽוּתֿ׃​

And it was actually Havvah who lied (or at the very least, exaggerated) to the nahash in B'reshyt 3:3 when she said

וּמִפְּרִ֣י הָעֵץ֘ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בְּתֿוֺךְֿ־הַגָּן֒ אָמַ֣ר אֱלֺקִ֗ים לֹ֤א תֺֽֿאֿכְֿלוּ֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ וְלֺ֥א תִֿגְּע֖וּ בּ֑וֺ פֶּן־תְּמֻתֽֿוּן׃​

—because they were never told not to even ‘touch’ that tree. (Besides, the root נ.ג.ע does not occur until this text.)

 

[The Realist Perspective]

Consider M'lachim A 2:37,42 where בְּיוֺם occurs in conjunction with מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ concerning Shim`iy’s confinement to Y'rushala'im on the orders of King Sh'lοmοh.

Did Shim`iy defy orders and leave Y'rushala'im? Yes, he did.
But did he really end up dying ‘on that day’? No, he did not.

מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ is an idiomatic usage akin to ‘a dead man walking’ in American parlance. So too, in this passage, were Adam and Havvah subject to death ‘on that day’.

Incidentally, the ‘doubling’ of the verb מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ at the end of verse 17 mirrors the corresponding verb אָכֺֿל תֺּאֿכֵֿל at the end of verse 16, forming a natural couplet.


And it was actually Havvah who lied (or at the very least, exaggerated) to the nahash in B'reshyt 3:3 when she said

—because they were never told not to even ‘touch’ that tree. (Besides, the root נ.ג.ע does not occur until this text.)

You’ve got some good points, especially about Shimei in 1 Kings 2:37,42 and how “mot tamut” can be understood idiomatically. But Shimei’s situation was conditional, he didn’t die immediately, but his defiance guaranteed death later. In Genesis 2:17, God’s warning doesn’t have a conditional setup like that. It says, “on the day you eat of it,” tying the consequence directly to the act of eating. There’s no wiggle room for an idiomatic “walking death” unless you’re reading that into the text.

The doubling of “mot tamut” (dying you will die) and “akhol tokhel” (freely eat) definitely adds emphasis, but when it’s paired with “beyom” (on the day), it points to immediate consequences, not something symbolic or delayed. Trying to turn that into an idiom feels like adding something that isn’t really there.

As for Eve, yeah, she added “nor shall you touch it,” which God never said. Maybe that’s exaggeration, or maybe she misunderstood, but it doesn’t fix the disconnect in God’s original warning. If anything, it shows the confusion creeping into the narrative.

Your take is interesting, but it’s adding layers to the text that don’t really solve the problem. The plain meaning still ties death to the day they eat, and that’s where the tension is.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Yes

 

[null]

God said another man's wife was pregnant with His baby, but he ain't fukk and she still a virgin

You tell me

 

[boogers]

the older i get the more i realize how much judaism just cribbed shyt from mesopotamia

a persecuted people who made up a story that said god loves them most of all

 

[MMS]

the older i get the more i realize how much judaism just cribbed shyt from mesopotamia

a persecuted people who made up a story that said god loves them most of all

in the context of divination lets pretend that Andromeda is "like God"

there are men tilling the soil (Cains)

and then there are people offering their firstlings (Abel)

how many times have you sat down and said: I am going to write a prophecy about God? and lived long enough to measure its effects?

Andromeda (mythology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the story of Andromeda (the name sake of the mirror galaxy to ours) the daughter of Cepheus and Cassiopeiah has been judged by the nereids to be fed to a massive fish at the water's edge. It is prophesied that she would be wed to Phineus (oracle or diviner) but she is smitten with Perseus (thief who steals her from the fish)

So the first thought is why would water nymphs try to isolate the daughter of two high borns? And the answer is simple the story is meant to frame a mind towards the real goal and that is the context of definitive meanings. Phineus (oracle) believes the daughter to be whats born from the king and queen of reality (in Aethiopia atleast). So instead of blaming themselves they say the Nereids did it which in turn makes them the fish. Either they swallow the story whole or they ignore the trapped girl

Now consider that in light of this character from Judges: Imagine if Sisera (servant of evil) is Abel's offering

Sisera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also according to the Midrash,[18] Sisera had previously conquered every country against which he had fought. His voice was so strong that, when he called loudly, the most solid wall would shake and the wildest animal would fall dead. Deborah was the only one who could withstand his voice and not be stirred from her place. Sisera caught enough fish in his beard when bathing in the Kishon to provision his whole army, and thirty-one kings followed Sisera merely for the opportunity of drinking, or otherwise using, the waters of Israel

Spoiler

why would a "statue" confuse fish/waternymphs?

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/can-any-christian-jew-explain-this.984023/page-14#post-49855616

 

[timeless]

the older i get the more i realize how much judaism just cribbed shyt from mesopotamia

a persecuted people who made up a story that said god loves them most of all

That's how I look at it.

 

[boogers]

in the context of divination lets pretend that Andromeda is "like God"

[...] snip

your reply would be a lot more helpful if it wasnt shrouded in 'spooky language'

i am open minded to all religions and think we could learn something from everybody

just be straightforward man, no need to wrap it up in a mystery

 

[Koichos]

You’ve got some good points, especially about Shimei in 1 Kings 2:37,42 and how “mot tamut” can be understood idiomatically.

Not only is מוֺתֿ תָּמוּתֿ purely idiomatic, but the surrounding text is set in poetic language rather than plain prose and the reason translations appear so clumsy.

But Shimei’s situation was conditional, he didn’t die immediately, but his defiance guaranteed death later. In Genesis 2:17, God’s warning doesn’t have a conditional setup like that. It says, “on the day you eat of it,” tying the consequence directly to the act of eating.

Death was not an immediate result in either narrative because that is not what the verb pair conveys.

There’s no wiggle room for an idiomatic “walking death” unless you’re reading that into the text.

The explanation I gave is pure p'sha6 (the straightforward meaning of the text).

The doubling of “mot tamut” (dying you will die) and “akhol tokhel” (freely eat) definitely adds emphasis, but when it’s paired with “beyom” (on the day), it points to immediate consequences, not something symbolic or delayed. Trying to turn that into an idiom feels like adding something that isn’t really there.

Your translation is 100% literal, but also 100% wrong. And the consequences were immediate because all בְּיוֺם indicates is that their subjectivity begins then.

As for Eve, yeah, she added “nor shall you touch it,” which God never said. Maybe that’s exaggeration, or maybe she misunderstood, but it doesn’t fix the disconnect in God’s original warning. If anything, it shows the confusion creeping into the narrative.

Your take is interesting, but it’s adding layers to the text that don’t really solve the problem. The plain meaning still ties death to the day they eat, and that’s where the tension is.

It is not ‘my’ take; it is the Hebrew understanding of the text.

The plain meaning still ties death to the day they eat, and that’s where the tension is.

Only if you rely on translations and ignore what the original text says.

 

[skeetsinternal]

is this the same guy who killed every firstborn child in egypt, but tells women they can't get an abortion

Relevant post to my mindset

 

[MMS]

your reply would be a lot more helpful if it wasnt shrouded in 'spooky language'

i am open minded to all religions and think we could learn something from everybody

just be straightforward man, no need to wrap it up in a mystery

why do you imply what I wrote is wrapped in mystery?

You typed "i am open minded to all religions and think we could learn something from everybody"

but then type to me: "be straight forward"

when this is what your statement implies:

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/the-locker-rooms-random-thoughts.313/page-22406#post-54593977

You should type "I am open minded to all religions and I think I can learn something from everybody"

"I should read what you said and contemplate it if its worth learning to me. If I don't understand something I will highlight what was said and get back to you"

 

[boogers]

why do you imply what I wrote is wrapped in mystery?

You typed "i am open minded to all religions and think we could learn something from everybody"

but then type to me: "be straight forward"

when this is what your statement implies:

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/the-locker-rooms-random-thoughts.313/page-22406#post-54593977

You should type "I am open minded to all religions and I think I can learn something from everybody"

"I should read what you said and contemplate it if its worth learning to me. If I don't understand something I will highlight what was said and get back to you"

 

[MMS]

He said, for a nominal service charge
I could reach Nirvana tonight

that breh is a liar just like you i never said i have a mystery for you at all

ole fake smart to hide the real problem

 

[boogers]

that breh is a liar just like you i never said i have a mystery for you at all

ole fake smart to hide the real problem

lol im flattered you actually listened to it. i was just messing with ya

if you can point me to some good scripture i'd appreciate it. i promise i am open minded! i want to know god, but theres so many damn hustlers out there you gotta be careful.

 

[Capitol]

lol im flattered you actually listened to it. i was just messing with ya

if you can point me to some good scripture i'd appreciate it. i promise i am open minded! i want to know god, but theres so many damn hustlers out there you gotta be careful.

I don't think you need anyone or anything to have a greater connection to the creator/spirit/soul..."God" however is a specific energy tied to a specific culture and religion

@MMS Do you ever take days off