Glenn Loury & John McWhorter speak on standardized testing in the Black community

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I dont know why I listen to Loury's show so much but he's so a fukking reactionary c00n and troll :damn:



Its almost like a responsibility to stay on top of what the leading c00ns are saying :snoop:

McWhorter is arguably worse since he's just a p*ssy, really.
 

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because test involving problem solving and critical thinking are racist?

:francis:

and I'm saying this as someone who completely sucks at test.

I'm content with just being stupid, test ain't racist because I sucked at it


Who benefits from arguing over "Are tests racist?" in the abstract? Like, what are we going to get out of having that discussion?

If you want a real discussion over why there's been a testing gap, myself and @EndDomination addressed it in detail earlier in the thread. Seems like a more meaningful thing to focus on.

if you'd rather talk about whether we should have high-stakes standardized testing at all, I'd be happy to. And my answer is "no, at least not at all like it's done now."
 
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Who benefits from arguing over "Are tests racist?" in the abstract? Like, what are we going to get out of having that discussion?

If you want a real discussion over why there's been a testing gap, myself and @EndDomination addressed it in detail earlier in the thread. Seems like a more meaningful thing to focus on.

if you'd rather talk about whether we should have high-stakes standardized testing at all, I'd be happy to. And my answer is "no, at least not at all like it's done now."
i want the doctor thats performing surgery on me to have went through rigorous high stakes testing before he or she touches me
 

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i want the doctor thats performing surgery on me to have went through rigorous high stakes testing before he or she touches me

If a doctor is performing surgery on you then his standardized test results should be the least of your concerns lol. Standardized testing is fukking meaningless to how well someone can perform surgery.

It's the equivalent of saying, "I'm not getting on a plane unless that pilot did well in spelling bees".


If you found out one surgeon was lazy and got mediocre grades but squeezed into school via his standardized test results, while the other surgeon had lower test scores but was an extraordinary worker who paid a lot more attention in class, got better grades and had better recommendations from his teachers, which one would you want operating on your body? The answer is.....neither, because neither high school classes nor high school tests of your vocab don't have jack shyt to do with being a good surgeon! It's 100x more valuable to know how they performed in their rotations, what their supervisors thought of their work, what kind of skills they showed during residency, and how much practical experience they have in the particular type of surgery they're gonna perform on you. If you have that information, why the fukk would you be looking at their high school standardized tests?
 
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because test involving problem solving and critical thinking are racist?

:francis:

and I'm saying this as someone who completely sucks at test.

I'm content with just being stupid, test ain't racist because I sucked at it
I heard McWhorter say he benefited from affirmative action :laff:

I heard it so many years ago and I'm kicking myself that I never clipped it. He DEFINITELY said it though in the bloggingheads era days.
 

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A nice practical example.

Christopher Duntsch got fantastic test scores. Great grades at every level. Won a scholarship to a prestigious M.D./Ph.D. program and graduated near the top of his class. Score watchers would think he would make an amazing surgeon.


On the other hand, Duntsch got extremely little actual experience in surgeries during his neurosurgery residency. Finished without having learned many basic surgical skills. Sniffed a lot of the white powder when he could and likely had a personality disorder, at least extreme narcissism. Considered himself a brilliant, incomparable surgeon due to his academic achievements despite his lack of experience.


Dr. Duntsch got a great job at Baylor Regional Medical Center due to his great grades and test scores. Later got a great job at Dallas Medical Center and also worked at other hospitals. All of his academic accolades won out over his lack of actual experience and questionable personal history. So how'd that work out?


Duntsch botched at least 33 surgeries, maiming or paralyzing numerous patients and outright killing two of them. The stories are fukking sick.

Several of Duntsch's surgeries at Baylor Plano resulted in severely maimed patients:

  • Kenneth Fennell, the first patient Duntsch operated on at Baylor Plano, was left with chronic pain after Duntsch operated on the wrong part of his back. Due to the debilitating pain, Fennell later had a second operation by Duntsch to relieve it, and was left significantly paralyzed in his legs. Fennell required months of rehabilitation to be able to walk with a cane, and was left unable to walk for more than 30 feet or stand for more than a few minutes without having to sit down again.[17]
  • Lee Passmore, a Collin County medical investigator, experienced chronic pain and limited mobility after Duntsch cut a ligament which was not normally touched during that particular procedure, misplaced hardware in his spine, placed a screw which kept the hardware in place in an incorrect location in his spine, and stripped the threads so it could not be removed. Even if Duntsch had not stripped the threads, he placed the screw in a location that would have caused Passmore to bleed out if it had been removed. Vascular surgeon Mark Hoyle, who assisted with the operation, later recalled that Duntsch seemed oblivious to considerable bleeding. Hoyle became so disturbed by Duntsch's actions that at one point he physically restrained him. He later told Duntsch to his face that he was dangerous. Duntsch's behavior led Hoyle to wonder about his sanity.[18][9][19][7]
  • Barry Morguloff, the owner of a pool service company, was left with bone fragments in his spinal canal after Duntsch tried to pull a damaged disc out of his back with a grabbing tool. Duntsch initially refused to give Morguloff any pain medicine, claiming Morguloff was a "drug seeker". Morguloff eventually lost most of the function on his left side and required a wheelchair.[9] Kirby assisted with the surgery and recalled Duntsch continued making mistakes even after having the correct anatomy pointed out to him. Morguloff later recalled that he walked out on a follow-up visit with Duntsch when Duntsch displayed clear signs of being inebriated.[7]
  • Jerry Summers, a longtime friend of Duntsch's, came to Plano to have two neck vertebrae fused. During the operation Summers was rendered a quadriplegic. The anesthesiologist who worked on the surgery recalled that Summers lost almost 1,200 milliliters of blood, more than a fifth of his blood volume and almost 24 times the typical amount of blood lost in a spinal fusion. The nurses and other staffers who took part in the surgery fully expected Summers to have revision surgery, but Duntsch refused to do it. Summers later stated that he and Duntsch had used cocaine the night before his surgery. Despite his passing a drug test, Baylor Plano officials were concerned enough to force Duntsch on leave pending a peer review. While Duntsch was cleared to resume operating while the review was underway, hospital officials asked him to limit himself to minor surgeries until it was complete. Summers subsequently admitted the cocaine claim was untrue, and said he was upset that Duntsch refused to check on him.[9][20][4][19][7] Summers remained a quadriplegic for the rest of his life; he died in 2021 of an infection related to complications from Duntsch's operation.[21][22]
  • Kellie Martin suffered from a major arterial injury during a routine back operation. Duntsch continued operating despite clear signs that Martin was losing massive amounts of blood. He refused to abort the surgery even after a trauma surgeon colleague and an anesthesiologist warned him about the blood loss. He refused to acknowledge anything was wrong, hindering the ICU team's efforts to save her. When Martin awoke from anesthesia, she was screaming and clawing at her legs, forcing the ICU team to re-anesthetize her. Duntsch also stayed out in the ICU waiting room writing notes rather than attending his patient, even after Martin went into hemorrhagic cardiac arrest. Martin ultimately bled to death.[4][23][7]
Duntsch moved to Dallas Medical Center in Farmers Branch, where he was granted temporary privileges until hospital officials could obtain his records from Baylor Plano. However, red flags surfaced early on, as nurses wondered if Duntsch was under the influence of drugs while on duty. For instance, he came to work wearing the same tattered scrubs for three days in a row.[7] He lasted for less than a week before administrators pulled his privileges after the death of a patient, Floella Brown, and the maiming of another, Mary Efurd.[9][10]

Duntsch had severed Brown's vertebral artery, and refused to abort despite the massive blood loss. He then packed it with too much of a substance intended to stop the bleeding. She suffered a stroke as a result. Duntsch did not respond to messages from the hospital for a few hours, then the next day scheduled an elective surgery on Efurd rather than care for Brown. Hospital officials were exasperated when Duntsch refused to delay Efurd's surgery, and asked him multiple times to care for Brown or transfer her out of his care. Duntsch suggested drilling a hole in Brown's head to relieve the pressure, but was refused permission. Not only was he not qualified for and held no privileges to perform brain surgery, but Dallas Medical did not have the proper equipment or personnel for such an operation. Brown was left in a coma for hours before Duntsch finally acquiesced to her transfer. By this time, however, Brown was brain dead.[23][19][24]

While operating on Efurd, Duntsch severed one of her nerve roots during spinal fusion surgery while operating on the wrong portion of her back, twisted a screw into another nerve, left screw holes on the opposite side of her spine, failed to remove the disc he was supposed to remove, and left surgical hardware in her muscle tissue so loose that it moved when touched. Despite several warnings from his colleagues that he wasn't doing the surgery correctly and was attempting to put screws into muscle rather than bone, Duntsch persisted. Efurd was left paralyzed.[19][25][7] She later recalled waking up feeling "excruciating pain", a "ten-plus" on a scale of 1 to 10. Several people who were in the operating room for Efurd's surgery suspected that Duntsch might have been intoxicated, recalling that his pupils were dilated.[4]

Longtime spine surgeon Robert Henderson performed the salvage surgery on Efurd. When Henderson saw the imaging from Duntsch's surgery, he was certain that there would be legal action, and had the salvage surgery recorded.[7] He likened what he found when he opened Efurd up to the results of a child playing with Tinkertoys or an erector set.[16][24] Henderson described Duntsch's surgery as an "assault", and concluded that Efurd would have been bedridden had the salvage surgery not been performed.[7]

Henderson later recalled wondering if Duntsch was an impostor; he could not believe that a real surgeon would botch Efurd's surgery so badly. He felt that anyone with a basic knowledge of human anatomy would know that he was operating in the wrong area of Efurd's back. Henderson sent Duntsch's picture to the University of Tennessee to determine whether he actually had a degree from that institution and received confirmation that Duntsch, in fact, did. He called Duntsch's fellowship supervisor in Memphis, as well as the supervisor of Duntsch's residency; it was then that he learned about the incident that led him to be referred to the impaired physician program.[4] [19]
After leaving Dallas Medical Center, Duntsch received privileges at South Hampton Community Hospital in Dallas, and also took a job at an outpatient clinic named Legacy Surgery Center (now Frisco Ambulatory Surgery Center) in Frisco. While there, he damaged patient Jeff Cheney's spinal cord, leaving him without feeling on the right side of his body.[18] He damaged patient Philip Mayfield's spinal cord, drilling into it and leaving him partially paralyzed from the neck down. After undergoing physical rehabilitation, Mayfield was able to walk with a cane but continued to experience paralysis on the right side of his body and in his left arm. He also reported shooting pains throughout his body.[4] Mayfield died of COVID-19 in February 2021; according to his wife, he had been vulnerable to the virus due to complications caused by Duntsch's botched surgeries.[27]

While attempting to remove degenerated discs in Marshall "Tex" Muse's back, Duntsch left surgical hardware floating between the spine and muscle tissue. Muse woke up in considerable pain, but Duntsch convinced him it was normal. He then prescribed Muse so much Percocet that a pharmacist refused to fill the prescription. Muse spiraled into opioid addiction that cost him his wife and his job. He later recalled that he read about Martin's death on the day before the surgery, but Duntsch cursed him out when he called to ask about it.[7] While operating on Jacqueline Troy, Duntsch cut one of her vocal cords and an artery, as well as damaging her trachea. Troy was left barely able to speak above a whisper, had to be sedated for weeks, and had to be fed through a feeding tube for some time as food was getting into her lungs.[18] Despite this, Duntsch was retained by South Hampton when new owners bought it and renamed it University General Hospital.[7]

When Duntsch applied for privileges at Methodist Hospital in Dallas, the hospital queried the NPDB. Soon afterward, he severely maimed Jeff Glidewell after mistaking part of his neck muscle for a tumor during a routine cervical fusion, severing one of his vocal cords, cutting a hole in his esophagus and slicing an artery. Duntsch stuffed a surgical sponge in Glidewell's throat to staunch the bleeding. However, he closed Glidewell with the sponge in place despite others in the operating room warning him about it. The sponge triggered a severe blood-borne infection that caused Glidewell to become septic. When other doctors discovered the sponge, Duntsch refused to return to help remove it.[9][24][19][7] After several days, Kirby was brought in to repair the damage, and later described what he found after opening Glidewell back up as the work of a "crazed maniac". He later told Glidewell that it was clear Duntsch had tried to kill him. Glidewell was left with only one vocal cord, permanent damage to his esophagus, and partial paralysis on his left side.[19][16] Kirby claimed that it looked as if Duntsch had tried to decapitate Glidewell, and contended that such a botched surgery "has not happened in the United States of America" before. Glidewell was reportedly still suffering the ill effects of Duntsch's operation years later, and has undergone more than 50 procedures to correct the damage. At one point, he was only able to eat small bites of food at one time. He proved to be Duntsch's last surgery; University General pushed him out soon afterward.[7][28][16]








But those test scores were great tho. :francis:
 
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A nice practical example.

Christopher Duntsch got fantastic test scores. Great grades at every level. Won a scholarship to a prestigious M.D./Ph.D. program and graduated near the top of his class. Score watchers would think he would make an amazing surgeon.


On the other hand, Duntsch got extremely little actual experience in surgeries during his neurosurgery residency. Finished without having learned many basic surgical skills. Sniffed a lot of the white powder when he could and likely had a personality disorder, at least extreme narcissism. Considered himself a brilliant, incomparable surgeon due to his academic achievements despite his lack of experience.


Dr. Duntsch got a great job at Baylor Regional Medical Center due to his great grades and test scores. Later got a great job at Dallas Medical Center and also worked at other hospitals. All of his academic accolades won out over his lack of actual experience and questionable personal history. So how'd that work out?


Duntsch botched at least 33 surgeries, maiming or paralyzing numerous patients and outright killing two of them. The stories are fukking sick.












But those test scores were great tho. :francis:



That's an extreme case. But I'm happy you guys are content with getting brain surgery from a guy/gal who barely got by in their schooling.

The coli dot com
 

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That's an extreme case. But I'm happy you guys are content with getting brain surgery from a guy/gal who barely got by in their schooling.

The coli dot com

Notice you just shifted the goalposts from "standardized test scores" to "schooling".


Would you prefer to be treated by someone who did great in their classes and rotations but had a mediocre SAT and MCAT score? Or would you rather someone who had great SAT and MCAT scores but struggled in their classes and rotations?



They've studied this exact question. Good MCAT scores predict your ability to continue to test well on future multiple-choice tests. They do nothing to predict how you'll perform as a doctor:

Does the MCAT predict medical school and PGY-1 performance?

"MCAT scores were weakly to moderately associated with assessments that rely on multiple choice testing. The association is somewhat stronger for assessments occurring earlier in medical school, such as USMLE Step 1. The MCAT was not able to predict assessments relying on direct clinical observation, nor was it able to predict PD assessment of PGY-1 performance."

Does the MCAT predict medical school and PGY-1 performance? - PubMed
 

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I’m not sure what the true message of this thread is about, but is it not obvious why black kids my not do well on tests compared to other kids, are y’all going to ignore the context of history or are y’all going to act like everybody is living the same lives so it’s something wrong with black people for not doing better on tests
That's an extreme case. But I'm happy you guys are content with getting brain surgery from a guy/gal who barely got by in their schooling.

The coli dot com
Being an A student in school is a plus but not the end all be all of becoming a surgeon, and what are the grades of the average surgeon in school and what does barely getting by mean
 

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A lot of people forget there were literally white culture questions on these exams.

It isn’t just “white culture questions”, it’s their epistemological stream of thought is prioritized. I remember an LSAT practice question asking about stolen museum items and what is the proper process? One question said return them. Another said, it is legally yours. I said return them. I was “wrong”. Even as I study for my exams, environmental depletion is spoken of as “efficient”.

We need to address the assemblages that imped black students’ success on these exams. It’s deeper than preparation or intelligence. I would prefer to get rid of all of them.
 
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