French is a Black Language

[mbewane]

It's a philosophical issue for me you can certainly have liberation movements and leaders under a colonial language, but your identity and mindset remain colonized. French and English are expedient in connecting the diaspora because of Colonialism, y'all are effectively proposing we embrace it and get behind the driver's seat of colonized communication, which leads to commerce and education, political structures and to a degree value systems, etc. People aren't going to Senegal to study French, or Nigeria to study English, etc.

Would you say that Americans are still mentally colonized by the English, or that Mexicans are still mentally colonized by Spain? What you do with language is up to you, that's why in colonies you had those who were for independence and those who were against, while both speaking the same language. Are you saying that Lumumba, Mandela, Nkrumah, Fanon and them were still colonized, even though they fought the colonizer?

Also I don't see where you get the whole "y'all proposing we embrace it", there's no "embracing" to be done since we already speak these languages, we're here speaking english

I see you brought up Decolonising the mind, which if I remember correctly does not call for the abolition of former colonial languages (which would be ironic since it's written in English) but for the uplifting of african languages and cultures. You don't need to do the former in order to do the latter, languages are not a zero-sum game.

 

[mbewane]

You have African Lusophone and some Asian Lusophone (Goa and Macau) but the language would definitely take a hit without Brazil.

Of course it would, but it would still be above Slovakian or Czech status

 

[JahFocus CS]

Would you say that Americans are still mentally colonized by the English, or that Mexicans are still mentally colonized by Spain? What you do with language is up to you, that's why in colonies you had those who were for independence and those who were against, while both speaking the same language. Are you saying that Lumumba, Mandela, Nkrumah, Fanon and them were still colonized, even though they fought the colonizer?

America itself is a settler state and an offspring of the British Empire, mostly populated by cacs. The non-UK cac immigrants from the colonial era and later, primarily parted with their national cultures to assimilate and therefore primarily adopted whiteness as their primary identity.

Now other groups in the U.S. -- say Natives or New Afrikans -- yes, still mentally colonized.

Mexicans are primarily of Indigenous ancestry but Spanish, colonial religion and the concept of mestizaje are dominant -- yes, still mentally colonized.

The fact that we are conversing in English is because it is a colonial legacy, same for every other European language.

I don't think it is practical to suggest a wholesale rejection of these languages given the material reality and how entrenched they are. But I think it is absolutely necessary to not allow our traditional languages to die, and we need to prioritize their revitalization. Anything else represents a victory for the colonizer

 

[BigMan]

I don't think it is practical to suggest a wholesale rejection of these languages given the material reality and how entrenched they are. But I think it is absolutely necessary to not allow our traditional languages to die, and we need to prioritize their revitalization. Anything else represents a victory for the colonizer

Who in this thread is suggesting this

 

[mbewane]

America itself is a settler state and an offspring of the British Empire, mostly populated by cacs. The non-UK cac immigrants from the colonial era and later, primarily parted with their national cultures to assimilate and therefore primarily adopted whiteness as their primary identity.

Now other groups in the U.S. -- say Natives or New Afrikans -- yes, still mentally colonized.

Mexicans are primarily of Indigenous ancestry but Spanish, colonial religion and the concept of mestizaje are dominant -- yes, still mentally colonized.

The fact that we are conversing in English is because it is a colonial legacy, same for every other European language.

I don't think it is practical to suggest a wholesale rejection of these languages given the material reality and how entrenched they are. But I think it is absolutely necessary to not allow our traditional languages to die, and we need to prioritize their revitalization. Anything else represents a victory for the colonizer

OK, just wanted to make sure people are coherent about who is supposedly "mentally colonized", because I get the feeling some english-speakers think they are not yet accuse others (specifically french-speakers of course) of being it. So everyone speaking a Euro language without being a Euro themself is "mentally colonized", I don't agree but at least you're coherent.

As for the bolded, no one is suggesting to let our traditional languages to die.

 

[JahFocus CS]

OK, just wanted to make sure people are coherent about who is supposedly "mentally colonized", because I get the feeling some english-speakers think they are not yet accuse others (specifically french-speakers of course) of being it. So everyone speaking a Euro language without being a Euro themself is "mentally colonized", I don't agree but at least you're coherent.

As for the bolded, no one is suggesting to let our traditional languages to die.

To clarify, I think there is much more to being "mentally colonized" than simply speaking a colonial language.

but lol @ anyone thinking English is any better than French. stan for one colonial language over another, brehs and brehettes

 

[mbewane]

To clarify, I think there is much more to being "mentally colonized" than simply speaking a colonial language.

but lol @ anyone thinking English is any better than French. stan for one colonial language over another, brehs and brehettes

Yep, I agree on both accounts.

 

[Civilisé]

Listen to Macron's speech, he's actually very aware that the French language and the francophonie organization are sometimes seen as "neocolonial". The goal of this organization isn't to become an economic partnership group like the Commonwealth (which is actually way more neocolonial when you think about it, simply because it's more powerful and useful for UK businesses), but to build a cultural partnership. Macron also thinks French people should learn more about African cultures. He expressed the wish that the leadership of the Francophonie should go either in African hands or in Caribbean hands (right now the boss is Haitian Canadian, so still a westerner).
Personally it's the 1st time I hear a French president saying this, and I can only respect his vision.

Find the Macron talk with students here:
The George Washington University | Washington, D.C.

 

[Civilisé]

how do you think this helped anglophone countries developed economically quicker than francophone? was there more knowledge transfer since brits tend to be more hands off?

That's a lot of simplification in here. Even tho it's hard to measure I would tend to believe that there were more knowledge transfer within French colonies just because the French mixed more with people, through work, schools etc. Some colonial leaders were seating in the French parliament, were deputies and ministers, and exchanges were rather intense.

Now when it comes to economic differences between anglo and franco, I would say keep in mind that during colonization England were military stronger than France and they secured the most powerful places for trade and resources first (East Africa/Red Sea, Niger Delta, Cap in South Africa etc). France kinda get the remaining places. So the language doesn't really matter, anglo former colonies are just in a better location for trade.

 

[Civilisé]

In the past few weeks I've been to various litterary events linked to Africa here in Paris (with the likes of Alain Mabanckou, Emmanuel Dongala, Abderahmane Waberi -writers who are all teachers in the US-, Felwinne Sarr, Achille Mbembe -among the leading thinkers in Africa according to me-) and the general consensus is that yes indeed, French is very much an African language...

@mbewane Je sais pas si on peut parler français ici.... so question for you in English concerning these new Franco African writers based in the US. I read some of them too. I'm interested to know what you think about them, considering you are concerned like me with American soft power... For some reason I always thought Americans and US colleges used these writers to culturally counter France in Africa, or at least to pretend America is more 'African friendly', more 'anti colonial' (btw this wouldn't be the first time they do this, see what JFK did) and basically use these writers to improve the image of the US in our African and Arab communities (typical soft power tactic). Do you think these writers are actually original? Do you feel they produce legit criticism or just introduce some US racial studies concepts into African studies? For example I've been disappointed by Mabanckou recent political comments, I found him too caricatural, too "American campus activist" if you see what I mean.

 

[mbewane]

@mbewane Je sais pas si on peut parler français ici.... so question for you in English concerning these new Franco African writers based in the US. I read some of them too. I'm interested to know what you think about them, considering you are concerned like me with American soft power... For some reason I always thought Americans and US colleges used these writers to culturally counter France in Africa, or at least to pretend America is more 'African friendly', more 'anti colonial' (btw this wouldn't be the first time they do this, see what JFK did) and basically use these writers to improve the image of the US in our African and Arab communities (typical soft power tactic). Do you think these writers are actually original? Do you feel they produce legit criticism or just introduce some US racial studies concepts into African studies? For example I've been disappointed by Mabanckou recent political comments, I found him too caricatural, too "American campus activist" if you see what I mean.

Ouais restons en anglais!

I see wht you're saying, and I guess I would tend to agree...I think the US kind of got into the space that France didn't provide for these writers, when you think about it's ridiculous, due to the historical links, that they had to go to the US to teach as opposed to France...so yeah it plays into the hands of US's soft power but not sure if it's a deliberate tactic or more so seizing the opportunity...I also think that the french system in which to teach at university you have to go through doctorates and what not played, if I'm not mistaken Mabanckou doesn't have that "formal" university training (could be wrong though). They are quite often in France for conferences though, and I think the fact that they are critical of la Francophonie and of their home countries (Mabanckou is very crictial of Congo-Brazza, and I think Waberi can't even go back to Djibouti) so that prob plays a big role. Waberi was a high-school teacher in France though, but left afterwards, I'm guessing because the university system in France is too closed.

Regarding Mabanckou's opinion, some stuff is interesting but sometimes... I like his fiction though. Not sure how serious he is seen in the whole african writing scene here in France, but that might be some jealousy playing a role too. The fact that he's very image-driven (you should check his Instagram or FB account) also prob plays a role in his perception. He also turned down Macron's proposal of participating in some kind of reflexion over la Francophonie, which was strange since he's been critical of it and that was an opportunity to do something about it. That being said, he did chair a big event at the College de France two years ago centered on Africa (Penser et écrire l'Afrique) which was quite a big deal in cultural and intellectual circles and brought in a lot of impotant people. So I think he's also using his name to do some good stuff. I don't know much about Waberi tbh though. But a guy like Souleymane Bachir Diagne (Senegalese philosopher teaching at Columbia) is at whole other level intellectually, Felwine Sarr and Achille Mbembé too (but they're not in the US, Sarr is a teacher in Senegal, Mbembé in SA).

 

[loyola llothta]

Listen to Macron's speech, he's actually very aware that the French language and the francophonie organization are sometimes seen as "neocolonial". The goal of this organization isn't to become an economic partnership group like the Commonwealth (which is actually way more neocolonial when you think about it, simply because it's more powerful and useful for UK businesses), but to build a cultural partnership. Macron also thinks French people should learn more about African cultures. He expressed the wish that the leadership of the Francophonie should go either in African hands or in Caribbean hands (right now the boss is Haitian Canadian, so still a westerner).
Personally it's the 1st time I hear a French president saying this, and I can only respect his vision.

Find the Macron talk with students here:
The George Washington University | Washington, D.C.

 

[Losttribe]

French is a good unifier especially in Western Africa. While a mother tongue may be more heartfelt, French has greater utility

Which is why i want to learn French. My friend lives in sengal now and hes struggling due to not knowing it.

 

[phcitywarrior]

Which is why i want to learn French. My friend lives in sengal now and hes struggling due to not knowing it.

He'll pick it up quickly. Just gotta throw himself out there. He will fail in his first fee months but after a while he'll be good.

 

[Losttribe]

He'll pick it up quickly. Just gotta throw himself out there. He will fail in his first fee months but after a while he'll be good.

Well its been 6 months now... I think hes okay but i remember when he first got there....

Which is why i am hesitant, so i wanna learn first