Finland’s two-year basic income trial did not spur the unemployed to work or earn more: government

[Wild self]

In a full UBI system, the basic income would apply to everyone. So there's no incentive not to work, no incentive not to be married, no incentive to keep yourself below a certain income, as you get the income whether you work or not, whether you're a single parent or married. Because of that it removes some of the "perverse incentives" that welfare can bring to the table.

Like medicare for senior citizens.

 

[BoBurnz]

There might be a difference of opinion between us as to what constitutes a "meaningful" pursuit.

To me at least 3/4 of the corporate wage work out there is meaningless. Nearly all advertising work is meaningless. Nearly all sales work is meaningless. A ton of production work, when the only thing you're making is some plastic bullshyt meant to be thrown away after two uses - that's all bullshyt. Are you programming? What are you programming - some timewaste just meant to capture people's attention for x seconds longer so that they're vulnerable to advertising? That's meaningless too.

When MOST corporate wage jobs are either meaningless or actually damaging to the human spirit, it's not the worst thing in the world to me if people quit that shyt to become artists. At least they're not working towards the consumerist destruction of the world anymore.

If you work in a hospital, if you learn a trade like plumbing/electrician/welding/etc., if you farm, if you manufacture products people actually need or that actually improve people's lives, if you are a caregiver, if you are an educator, if you work in essential government services, if you produce positive media or art, if you're a journalist, if you're a scientist or engineer (so long as you're not working in military-industrial complex), if you work in conservation, history, sociology, if you are helping people access their civil rights, if you're mentoring children, working in ministry, those are all meaningful pursuits. A lot of the rest of the jobs only exist because they produce corporate profit, and the people working for those corporate profiteers know that their position ain't doing shyt good in this world and they'd rather be doing something else if they didn't have to keep their family afloat with the paycheck.

This. This. 100000x this.

We live in a make work society where the overwhelming majority of our jobs and pursuits are entirely meaningless in the insane chance of capital and the further concentration of wealth. I work a good job, I make good money, but I fully recognize that my position and my company is completely worthless to the human experience. We shouldn't be poo-pooing the ideal of basic human dignity and the ability to uplift ourselves beyond this banal pursuit of more more more to consume and kill ourselves with the endless rat race just because it doesn't tick a few boxes that we've ascribed undue importance too because we as a society have convinced ourselves that the only way to happiness is to destroy ourselves to we can continue to consume. Because we have to sacrifice our passions and our spirit to engage in the endless cycle. I'd MUCH rather go back into academia and teach than continue at my current job (which I enjoy but don't get nearly the same level of fulfillment from), but the massive cut in my financial security just doesn't make it viable as a parent of two children.

People working themselves to the bone for what? So that a billionaire and a board of directors that you'll never be on will make 6% more money YoY while you slave away making advertisements for food and products that are killing people? Is this the society we want? Is the end goal the death of all human dignity and respect? We have enough in the world to make it so nobody wants for anything, to save EVERYBODY. Why aren't we? Corporate greed.

 

[Dr. Acula]

This. This. 100000x this.

We live in a make work society where the overwhelming majority of our jobs and pursuits are entirely meaningless in the insane chance of capital and the further concentration of wealth. I work a good job, I make good money, but I fully recognize that my position and my company is completely worthless to the human experience. We shouldn't be poo-pooing the ideal of basic human dignity and the ability to uplift ourselves beyond this banal pursuit of more more more to consume and kill ourselves with the endless rat race just because it doesn't tick a few boxes that we've ascribed undue importance too because we as a society have convinced ourselves that the only way to happiness is to destroy ourselves to we can continue to consume. Because we have to sacrifice our passions and our spirit to engage in the endless cycle. I'd MUCH rather go back into academia and teach than continue at my current job (which I enjoy but don't get nearly the same level of fulfillment from), but the massive cut in my financial security just doesn't make it viable as a parent of two children.

People working themselves to the bone for what? So that a billionaire and a board of directors that you'll never be on will make 6% more money YoY while you slave away making advertisements for food and products that are killing people? Is this the society we want? Is the end goal the death of all human dignity and respect? We have enough in the world to make it so nobody wants for anything, to save EVERYBODY. Why aren't we? Corporate greed.

All this is why I switched careers and 100% more satisfied with my current career than previous one.

It does wonders for your mental health regarding work when you actually feel your work is meaningful versus just being a profit cog for someone who makes astronomically more money than you. Some people are blissful enough that they don't inspire for more to be mentally happy. It wasn't enough for me to just have a "job" in my previous career. I know every thing I do now is actually making sure lives are literally saved and making life better for people.

 

[Maschine_Man]

This. This. 100000x this.

We live in a make work society where the overwhelming majority of our jobs and pursuits are entirely meaningless in the insane chance of capital and the further concentration of wealth. I work a good job, I make good money, but I fully recognize that my position and my company is completely worthless to the human experience. We shouldn't be poo-pooing the ideal of basic human dignity and the ability to uplift ourselves beyond this banal pursuit of more more more to consume and kill ourselves with the endless rat race just because it doesn't tick a few boxes that we've ascribed undue importance too because we as a society have convinced ourselves that the only way to happiness is to destroy ourselves to we can continue to consume. Because we have to sacrifice our passions and our spirit to engage in the endless cycle. I'd MUCH rather go back into academia and teach than continue at my current job (which I enjoy but don't get nearly the same level of fulfillment from), but the massive cut in my financial security just doesn't make it viable as a parent of two children.

People working themselves to the bone for what? So that a billionaire and a board of directors that you'll never be on will make 6% more money YoY while you slave away making advertisements for food and products that are killing people? Is this the society we want? Is the end goal the death of all human dignity and respect? We have enough in the world to make it so nobody wants for anything, to save EVERYBODY. Why aren't we? Corporate greed.

while much of this is true, the thing that many ppl don't want to think about is that we live in a world of convenience.

it wouldn't be that hard to step away from your shytty little accounting job that is literally only their to make money (not you personally). but how many would leave the comfort of an office to go back to the way things were 100 years ago?
even 50 years ago?


ppl talk about wasting pointless hours everyday just going to work and doing a lot of pointless shyt. but do you think those ppl would ever even think about being self sustainable?

ppl used to work themselves to the bone just to live. growing crops for food, hunting for food. farming, milking cows, churning butter. making their own clothes. cutting wood just to heat their homes and eat. and anything they couldn't do on their own they spent countless hours trading and working with others trying to do the same. All this while still trying to secure their homes, raise children, and try to do any bit of leisure.

now, I'm not gonna say which life is better, because everyone has their own opinions. but it seems like a lot of ppl have this starry eyed view of what life was like before modern time.

we are currently living in some of the best times EVER. ppl just need to learn to have a better balance.

 

[Swahili P'Bitek]

That kenyan UBI experiment was obviously going to work. Nobody is going to stop working because of $ 0.75 per day when they have 3-4 children.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

STOCKTON, CA, US: New Details Revealed in Planned Basic Income Demonstration | BIEN
The first major basic income trial in the US just announced how it plans to give away free money

 

[Perfectson]

This shyt is counter-intuitive to basic human psychology. This should be the absolute last resort as an economic policy.

How come when I explain that to @For Da Bag and @storyteller they tell me I'm wrong then ?

 

[wtfyomom]

There might be a difference of opinion between us as to what constitutes a "meaningful" pursuit.

To me at least 3/4 of the corporate wage work out there is meaningless. Nearly all advertising work is meaningless. Nearly all sales work is meaningless. A ton of production work, when the only thing you're making is some plastic bullshyt meant to be thrown away after two uses - that's all bullshyt. Are you programming? What are you programming - some timewaste just meant to capture people's attention for x seconds longer so that they're vulnerable to advertising? That's meaningless too.

When MOST corporate wage jobs are either meaningless or actually damaging to the human spirit, it's not the worst thing in the world to me if people quit that shyt to become artists. At least they're not working towards the consumerist destruction of the world anymore.

If you work in a hospital, if you learn a trade like plumbing/electrician/welding/etc., if you farm, if you manufacture products people actually need or that actually improve people's lives, if you are a caregiver, if you are an educator, if you work in essential government services, if you produce positive media or art, if you're a journalist, if you're a scientist or engineer (so long as you're not working in military-industrial complex), if you work in conservation, history, sociology, if you are helping people access their civil rights, if you're mentoring children, working in ministry, those are all meaningful pursuits. A lot of the rest of the jobs only exist because they produce corporate profit, and the people working for those corporate profiteers know that their position ain't doing shyt good in this world and they'd rather be doing something else if they didn't have to keep their family afloat with the paycheck.

this exactly what I been saying, basically its capitalism and profit motive that causes this. muther fukkers brag, oh cause of capitalism theres 100 types of ice cream to choose from, da fukk? thats a meaningless waste. also since everyone always trying to sell you shyt 24/7, youre brain is constantly bombarded and distracted by bullshyt that wouldnt be there if everyone wasnt trying to sell you some bs you dont need 24 hours a day. this shyt is all a big scam.

 

[wtfyomom]

I dont know what I think of UBI. Im not against it per se. but my preference is workers having more power, not people sitting home not working period. i do feel its prob not gonna be used to actually help people and is more of a safety net for automation, not cause the corps care but because they dont want a chaotic revolt

 

[storyteller]

How come when I explain that to @For Da Bag and @storyteller they tell me I'm wrong then ?

Because I base my opinions on the data we get back from pilots like this and I've explained it already.

Like I said, there are a number of experiments and models rolled out right now. I'd rather look at the results of them collectively; find out what pros and cons arise as well as how scale, design and length impact those pros and cons; and then come up new models informed by all of that information. At least until the data is clear that the costs and cons outweigh the benefits and pros. Seeing the success story in Kenya makes me think I want to find out if there is a way to increase scale and keep the efficacy; or find out what the circumstances are where we should mimic the model to help others at the very least. But that's going to take trial, data and study. Something else I think is noteworthy here in the case of the Finland model; even though employment remained unaffected, it looks like health was improved and stress was reduced. That's not to try and weigh or scale cost vs benefits here, I'd have to do a lot more reading to go that deep but just that there are some initial indicators of beneficial aspects of this. It's a lot to dive into and if your goal is to increase employment primarily, then it's not gonna be your focus. But there was an affect, just not on employment.

 

[Perfectson]

Because I base my opinions on the data we get back from pilots like this and I've explained it already.

This is such a cop out , this isn't the energy you have in 99% of our dialogue and it's very dishonest because it was just 2 weeks ago when you were arguing with me tooth and nail .

 

[storyteller]

This is such a cop out , this isn't the energy you have in 99% of our dialogue and it's very dishonest because it was just 2 weeks ago when you were arguing with me tooth and nail .

I haven't treated you seriously for a long time kid. You're out of your depth here, it's obvious and there are pages of different posters coming to the same realization in the AOC thread where your bizarre obsession is equal parts pathetic and creepy.

 

[Perfectson]

I haven't treated you seriously for a long time kid. You're out of your depth here, it's obvious and there are pages of different posters coming to the same realization in the AOC thread where your bizarre obsession is equal parts pathetic and creepy.

What because I disagree with AOC and socialists like you (who is now back pedaling like a mofo) and engage in dialogue about this, I'm now pathetic and creepy.

There's like 7 of you hacks and I'm responding to each of one of your idiotic statements, of course I'll have more Posts than anyone else


Just like you fail at understanding what socialism is, the economics of capitalism, and other topics,.. it seems even basic math and multiplication fails you .

 

[storyteller]

What because I disagree with AOC and socialists like you (who is now back pedaling like a mofo) and engage in dialogue about this, I'm now pathetic and creepy.

There's like 7 of you hacks and I'm responding to each of one of your idiotic statements, of course I'll have more Posts than anyone else


Just like you fail at understanding what socialism is, the economics of capitalism, and other topics,.. it seems even basic math and multiplication fails you .

I'm not a Socialist, I lean Social Democrat in policy prescriptions, I've explained this to you, you're too stupid to understand the nuance even after I gave you a youtube clip simplifying things so that your reading comprehension wouldn't fail you again.

What exactly do you think that I'm backpedaling from?

And seriously, stop with the weird AOC obsession, you can rationalize it all you want. It's creepy AF.

 

[Perfectson]

I'm not a Socialist, I lean Social Democrat in policy prescriptions, I've explained this to you, you're too stupid to understand the nuance even after I gave you a youtube clip simplifying things so that your reading comprehension wouldn't fail you again.

What exactly do you think that I'm backpedaling from?

And seriously, stop with the weird AOC obsession, you can rationalize it all you want. It's creepy AF.

You morphed into whatever helps you win the argument that's not the energy you were on previously and only started touting this when I explained to you the difference between Nordic capitalism .

Bro you can continue with the AOC strawman because that's all you have, ive successfully educated you enough that you are now labeling yourself a social Democrat

Still despite this you continue touting socialist rhetoric that you have no education or understanding of (like economics and this topic