Finland’s two-year basic income trial did not spur the unemployed to work or earn more: government

[Maschine_Man]

This is simply not true.

If it were true, people who inherit money wouldn't go to school or get jobs, and all people who did get jobs would only work as much as necessary for the basic necessities. But that's not what happens in real life, is it?

the problem with that thinking is that the ppl inheriting money are highly pressured by their families to go to the right schools, and get the right jobs. they aren't happy and most of the time they are only doing it to satisfy their parents or succumb to the pressure. on their own most would certainly go in a different direction.

and if it weren't for societal pressure most ppl would certainly only work the bare minimum. but to "keep up with the joneses" ppl are working more than they really want.

 

[Creflo ½ Dollar]

This is simply not true.

If it were true, people who inherit money wouldn't go to school or get jobs, and all people who did get jobs would only work as much as necessary for the basic necessities. But that's not what happens in real life, is it?

You are somewhat correct. I didn’t mean it too literally. Maybe that’s the WRONG quote to use but this is what I mean when I say that.


Take it as most people not going to go above their normal baseline or their normal, set by their circumstances.

The path of least resistence differ individually. It’s a lot more pressures in life than the basic necessities. If a child get their ass whooped every time they dnt make up their bed then the path of least resistance would be to make up the bed.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

Take it as most people not going to go above their normal baseline or their normal, set by their circumstances.

That's fair. Most people do want to be comfortable instead of lavished. Bare minimum doesn't seem accurate in terms of those people though. More like they are trying to find an equilibrium. Which is probably why more men use that money for entertainment (ex: going to the game, drinking, fishing) than women. Needs were simply different.

 

[Savvir]

"Experiment in Finland With Guaranteed Income Creates Less Stress but No Jobs
Early results from pilot program find a set income doesn’t encourage people to find work, but neither does it turn them against employment."

Experiment in Finland With Guaranteed Income Creates Less Stress but No Jobs

sounds to me like ubi is a way for productive members to have less stress and more financial safety as they find jobs while keeping others out of poverty.
what else was it supposed to do?

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

Lmao that’s not the purpose of basic income. This is nothing but a standard welfare transfer payment. Basic income is designed to replace income from work b/c automation will displace a great percentage of available jobs. It’s meant to cover all basic necessities not to be an additional sweetener. The pilot programs nowadays are more so to keep people out of abject poverty - and the recipients for the most part (in other case studies) have been the working poor.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Also the work culture in the US is vicious, I can see how that can contribute to people opting out meaningful pursuits in favor frivolous shyt like being youtube casters, "artists" because they are getting UBI

There might be a difference of opinion between us as to what constitutes a "meaningful" pursuit.

To me at least 3/4 of the corporate wage work out there is meaningless. Nearly all advertising work is meaningless. Nearly all sales work is meaningless. A ton of production work, when the only thing you're making is some plastic bullshyt meant to be thrown away after two uses - that's all bullshyt. Are you programming? What are you programming - some timewaste just meant to capture people's attention for x seconds longer so that they're vulnerable to advertising? That's meaningless too.

When MOST corporate wage jobs are either meaningless or actually damaging to the human spirit, it's not the worst thing in the world to me if people quit that shyt to become artists. At least they're not working towards the consumerist destruction of the world anymore.

If you work in a hospital, if you learn a trade like plumbing/electrician/welding/etc., if you farm, if you manufacture products people actually need or that actually improve people's lives, if you are a caregiver, if you are an educator, if you work in essential government services, if you produce positive media or art, if you're a journalist, if you're a scientist or engineer (so long as you're not working in military-industrial complex), if you work in conservation, history, sociology, if you are helping people access their civil rights, if you're mentoring children, working in ministry, those are all meaningful pursuits. A lot of the rest of the jobs only exist because they produce corporate profit, and the people working for those corporate profiteers know that their position ain't doing shyt good in this world and they'd rather be doing something else if they didn't have to keep their family afloat with the paycheck.

 

[PoorAndDangerous]

The point of ubi isn't to motivate people to become employed...

 

[Reece]

UBI is being pushed by mostly the technocracy from my understanding because they envision a future where workers are no longer needed. Everything is automated and individuals are just given a set income by the "future elites" in order to placate them.

I'm not a fan of it from that perspective.

They can dress it up all they want. That shyt is communism. Instead of waiting in lines for food, we’ll get an online digital account and some cards but I pray for anyone dumb enough to believe they’re getting anything beside the absolute bare minimum.

 

[Gus Money]

I thought we weren’t supposed to compare the US to these other countries though.

 

[Micky Mikey]

There might be a difference of opinion between us as to what constitutes a "meaningful" pursuit.

To me at least 3/4 of the corporate wage work out there is meaningless. Nearly all advertising work is meaningless. Nearly all sales work is meaningless. A ton of production work, when the only thing you're making is some plastic bullshyt meant to be thrown away after two uses - that's all bullshyt. Are you programming? What are you programming - some timewaste just meant to capture people's attention for x seconds longer so that they're vulnerable to advertising? That's meaningless too.

When MOST corporate wage jobs are either meaningless or actually damaging to the human spirit, it's not the worst thing in the world to me if people quit that shyt to become artists. At least they're not working towards the consumerist destruction of the world anymore.

If you work in a hospital, if you learn a trade like plumbing/electrician/welding/etc., if you farm, if you manufacture products people actually need or that actually improve people's lives, if you are a caregiver, if you are an educator, if you work in essential government services, if you produce positive media or art, if you're a journalist, if you're a scientist or engineer (so long as you're not working in military-industrial complex), if you work in conservation, history, sociology, if you are helping people access their civil rights, if you're mentoring children, working in ministry, those are all meaningful pursuits. A lot of the rest of the jobs only exist because they produce corporate profit, and the people working for those corporate profiteers know that their position ain't doing shyt good in this world and they'd rather be doing something else if they didn't have to keep their family afloat with the paycheck.

This post pretty much somes up our modern society

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What's the difference between this and welfare ?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

What's the difference between this and welfare ?

In a full UBI system, the basic income would apply to everyone. So there's no incentive not to work, no incentive not to be married, no incentive to keep yourself below a certain income, as you get the income whether you work or not, whether you're a single parent or married. Because of that it removes some of the "perverse incentives" that welfare can bring to the table.

 

[Ghost Utmost]

Pretty sure I read about the UBI experiment in Kenya being really successful. There a few others too, so probably a good idea to look at how each UBI experiment is modeled and try to pick out what works and doesn't (almost like a systematic review).

I just read the article about Kenya that was posted in this thread

Seems like quite a difference in scale between the two

Like polling, you have to have a broad enough experiment to get results that you can apply to the larger population as a whole

I just go back to people I know. The homie for instance is tryna get some insurance money from an accident.

Should be like $5K

The first thing out of his mouth was going out and blowing some of it. If I got that I would send it directly to Visa.

If I had to guess, every penny will go into some fluff

I have been living next to a housing project all my life. Free place to live and free food very rarely inspires achievement. I have watched GENERATIONS of us just sitting completely still in that project. I have come to see it as a factor that handicaps the people there

 

[storyteller]

I just read the article about Kenya that was posted in this thread

Seems like quite a difference in scale between the two

Like polling, you have to have a broad enough experiment to get results that you can apply to the larger population as a whole

I just go back to people I know. The homie for instance is tryna get some insurance money from an accident.

Should be like $5K

The first thing out of his mouth was going out and blowing some of it. If I got that I would send it directly to Visa.

If I had to guess, every penny will go into some fluff

I have been living next to a housing project all my life. Free place to live and free food very rarely inspires achievement. I have watched GENERATIONS of us just sitting completely still in that project. I have come to see it as a factor that handicaps the people there

Like I said, there are a number of experiments and models rolled out right now. I'd rather look at the results of them collectively; find out what pros and cons arise as well as how scale, design and length impact those pros and cons; and then come up new models informed by all of that information. At least until the data is clear that the costs and cons outweigh the benefits and pros. Seeing the success story in Kenya makes me think I want to find out if there is a way to increase scale and keep the efficacy; or find out what the circumstances are where we should mimic the model to help others at the very least. But that's going to take trial, data and study. Something else I think is noteworthy here in the case of the Finland model; even though employment remained unaffected, it looks like health was improved and stress was reduced. That's not to try and weigh or scale cost vs benefits here, I'd have to do a lot more reading to go that deep but just that there are some initial indicators of beneficial aspects of this. It's a lot to dive into and if your goal is to increase employment primarily, then it's not gonna be your focus. But there was an affect, just not on employment.

 

[Ghost Utmost]

Like I said, there are a number of experiments and models rolled out right now. I'd rather look at the results of them collectively; find out what pros and cons arise as well as how scale, design and length impact those pros and cons; and then come up new models informed by all of that information. At least until the data is clear that the costs and cons outweigh the benefits and pros. Seeing the success story in Kenya makes me think want to find out if there is a way to increase scale and keep the efficacy; or find out what the circumstances are where we should mimic the model to help others at the very least. But that's going to take trial, data and study. Something else I think is noteworthy here in the case of the Finland model; even though employment remained unaffected, it looks like health was improved and stress was reduced. That's not to try and weigh or scale cost vs benefits here, I'd have to do a lot more reading to go that deep but just that there are some initial indicators of beneficial aspects of this. It's a lot to dive into and if your goal is to increase employment primarily, then it's not gonna be your focus. But there was an affect, just not on employment.

I have officially gone from

This is some bullshyt

to

This deserves a closer look

Largely based on your post. Rare. Rare indeed