FACT: Unionization increases income—not just for union workers but also entire middle

TruStyle

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If you are busting your ass at a job that just doesn't pay a lot, what do you expect?

Back in the days companies could afford to lavish employees with all kinds of pay and benefits because we had a global monopoly in many industries (no India/China and Europe was rebuilding from the war). Now a steelworker here is competing with a steelworker in China who is happy to take 10% of the American worker's pay. How does forcing American companies to pay their workers more solve that?


To me "ok" is having food + shelter + $$$ left over. Illegal immigrants come here, work for less than minimum wage, have roofs over their heads and food on their plates and still manage to send money back home.



Why does he need that extra time? IF he really needs it, would he be willing to take that time unpaid?

Lets say you are this dude looking for an extra week of paid vacation. Explain how you would make the case to your manager to give you an extra week of pay for no work?

:beli:

So you just in here trolling huh cuz this cant be serious. Them people is living 10+ppl in a 3 bedroom, eating rice and beans daily and sending 10s of dollars home a week. Stop with your nonsense dude. thats not living, thats barely surviving. Why are they coming here to work anyway? They should have plenty of jobs in there home countries where unions dont exist right?? The companys probably would take care of them? Why you aint answer my post tho.
 

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If you are busting your ass at a job that just doesn't pay a lot, what do you expect?

Back in the days companies could afford to lavish employees with all kinds of pay and benefits because we had a global monopoly in many industries (no India/China and Europe was rebuilding from the war). Now a steelworker here is competing with a steelworker in China who is happy to take 10% of the American worker's pay. How does forcing American companies to pay their workers more solve that?


To me "ok" is having food + shelter + $$$ left over. Illegal immigrants come here, work for less than minimum wage, have roofs over their heads and food on their plates and still manage to send money back home.



Why does he need that extra time? IF he really needs it, would he be willing to take that time unpaid?

Lets say you are this dude looking for an extra week of paid vacation. Explain how you would make the case to your manager to give you an extra week of pay for no work?

The jobs people were busting their ass at used to pay enough to provide a good life. If companies cant afford to pay these workers a good salary because of global competition then how do you explain their profits skyrocketing? If profits are going up then why arent the regular workers benefiting like the owners and executives are?

Illegal immigrants working for less than minimum wage are living in awful crime ridden neighborhoods, often with more than 1 family in the house, and are living a meager lifestyle. Why you think it is ok for the lifestyle of Americans to be reduced to that and its ok, i have no earthly idea. People want the quality of life they had decades ago. People arent asking for mansions and luxury cars. Just a good life. We should be able to provide that in America.

Do you not realize that Americans have the lowest amount of vacation time in the modern world, yet we work the most hours? Why do you think the bare minimum of 2 weeks vacation a year is fine? Its because you were brought up in this system thats why. People in other countries laugh at that shyt. Its offensive to them, yet for you thats perfectly fine. Unions are the reason we even get that paltry amount.
 

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:beli:

So you just in here trolling huh cuz this cant be serious. Them people is living 10+ppl in a 3 bedroom, eating rice and beans daily and sending 10s of dollars home a week. Stop with your nonsense dude. thats not living, thats barely surviving. Why are they coming here to work anyway? They should have plenty of jobs in there home countries where unions dont exist right?? The companys probably would take care of them? Why you aint answer my post tho.
I didnt answer your post because it wasnt directed to me :dwillhuh:

And yes while those folks living conditions seem extreme, American living standards are excessive. The size of the avg American home has increased significantly over the last couple of years

http://www.census.gov/const/C25Ann/sftotalmedavgsqft.pdf

If I'm not mistaken it has doubled since the 50s. Likewise Americans are eating damn near 2x as much as we used to. We have a lot more useless crap as well that keeps us mired in debt. So this underlying theme that middle class America's financial plight is the result of corporate greed is bogus. Yes, outsourcing and wage stagnation play a part, but to try and say they are the only drivers is intellectually dishonest. Point is Americans are making a lot more bad lifestyle + financial choices than we used to

Back to your point though, Americans have grown to feel we are entitled to a standard of life that is well beyond that of "the good old days" people keep referencing as how we should be living, while also not wanting to make the sacrifices or work as hard as we were during "the good old days". The revisionist history is crazy and totally transparent.

The jobs people were busting their ass at used to pay enough to provide a good life. If companies cant afford to pay these workers a good salary because of global competition then how do you explain their profits skyrocketing? If profits are going up then why arent the regular workers benefiting like the owners and executives are?
Bruh the world changes. Back in the day 98% of the Western world worked on farms. Now in many countries farming can't exist without govt subsidies. The pace of change has also accelerated, which is a legitimate cause for concern but not the fault of corporations. In other words, a good job 50 years ago might not even exist today, and its goofy to expect a job's value to remain constant with time.

Not to mention, companies are in the business of making a profit, and part of that is finding labor that is cheap. For better or worse when places like China and Malaysia opened up corporations took jobs there, and US consumers benefited by having cheaper prices. And the typical company within the context of what we are talking about is not that profitable. Don't use Apple or Exxon as an example of a "typical" American company, thats dishonest. They are the exceptions, not the rules... corporations still face losses and go out of business.

Illegal immigrants working for less than minimum wage are living in awful crime ridden neighborhoods, often with more than 1 family in the house, and are living a meager lifestyle. Why you think it is ok for the lifestyle of Americans to be reduced to that and its ok, i have no earthly idea. People want the quality of life they had decades ago. People arent asking for mansions and luxury cars. Just a good life. We should be able to provide that in America.

I didn't say that is how we should be living, just that your assertion that there's no way for Americans to cut back any further is false. And like I said, the quality of life we had decades ago would be a significant regression. Smaller houses, less food, less "stuff". If Americans did that, there would still be issues, but they wouldn't be anywhere near as bad

Do you not realize that Americans have the lowest amount of vacation time in the modern world, yet we work the most hours? Why do you think the bare minimum of 2 weeks vacation a year is fine? Its because you were brought up in this system thats why. People in other countries laugh at that shyt. Its offensive to them, yet for you thats perfectly fine. Unions are the reason we even get that paltry amount.
Other countries laugh? :aicmon:

Most of the European countries w/these more generous benefits are in the midst of a recession/crisis with significantly higher unemployment. The few European countries that are still afloat with better benefits than us have much more competitive workforces and more investment into their labor from the govt. Likewise, Europeans laugh at our mindless excess- our "pigs in a trough" approach to food, our gaudy overcompensating oversized houses, our complete ignorance of world culture yadda yadda. America's got problems way bigger than corporations "giving" us the lifestyle we "deserve"... why you are fixated on this idea that our problems all come back to corporations not paying enough is beyond me but its clear you have an agenda.
 

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Nah breh you're wrong and I'll tell you why

1. thats public sector unions

2. the society can afford it but in the last 30 years there has been reckless tax cuts that come at a cost breh and that has been damaging municipalties, states and the federal government.

:snoop::snoop::snoop:

Society CANNOT afford to pay the outrageous benefits and salaries paid to public sector unions. How is it fair for taxpayers to pay public sector unions wages and benefits that are better than what they get themselves?

It isn't a matter of taxes being too low. The states with the highest taxes (for example California) have the most expensive pension costs and the biggest deficits. California is going broke because of the unions.
 

KingpinOG

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If unions increase income than why are the most heavily unionized cities like Detroit and Cleveland so impoverished? Wake the fukk up. Michigan, Ohio, and the rest of the Midwest are as pro union as it gets and they are losing businesses and population in droves. And where are they going? To the non-unionized states in the south.
 

88m3

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If unions increase income than why are the most heavily unionized cities like Detroit and Cleveland so impoverished? Wake the fukk up. Michigan, Ohio, and the rest of the Midwest are as pro union as it gets and they are losing businesses and population in droves. And where are they going? To the non-unionized states in the south.

And then there's this area called the North East.


The Midwest has a host of issues if you want to skip over them and blame unions you're not being honest with yourself.
 

KingpinOG

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And then there's this area called the North East.


The Midwest has a host of issues if you want to skip over them and blame unions you're not being honest with yourself.

The northeast is struggling as well. All the population growth and economic growth in the country is happening in the South.

Thankfully, people are starting to wake up. You know things are changing when heavily unionized states like Michigan pass right to work laws and Wisconsin reforms collective bargaining for public sector unions.

Americans aren't as dumb and blind as left wingers think they are.
 

88m3

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The northeast is struggling as well. All the population growth and economic growth in the country is happening in the South.

Thankfully, people are starting to wake up. You know things are changing when heavily unionized states like Michigan pass right to work laws and Wisconsin reforms collective bargaining for public sector unions.

Americans aren't as dumb and blind as left wingers think they are.


How do the "right to work laws" help people?


Don't you consider "right to work" government interference in the private sector?

Share some instances of this growth you speak of happening in the South please.



:deadrose:
 

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@KingpinOG

Get back to me when you find nothing on free republic
 
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Broke Wave

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:snoop::snoop::snoop:

Society CANNOT afford to pay the outrageous benefits and salaries paid to public sector unions. How is it fair for taxpayers to pay public sector unions wages and benefits that are better than what they get themselves?

It isn't a matter of taxes being too low. The states with the highest taxes (for example California) have the most expensive pension costs and the biggest deficits. California is going broke because of the unions.

Let me briefly forget that you are a prolific troll weirdo virgin. Lets forget that.

Lets address the meat of what you said.

Society cannot afford to pay the "outrageous benefits and salaries" paid to public sector unions... but according to your ideology society will not only afford to give tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations, this will be a net fiscal bonus to the jurisdiction in question. I like the distinction you made between Public Sector Unions and the "taxpayer", as if Public Sector Unions are not taxpayers. That will not work on me buddy. I'd like to remind you who was the Governor of California for 8 years... I suggest you look at the debt before his tenure and the debt subsequent to that.

Society has created more wealth in the last 30 years than ever before, and wages have remained utterly stagnant when you adjust for inflation, with the higher income groups taking almost 3 digit percent gains. I mean I know you know all this and you're a troll but I hope someone reading this will gain.
 

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Good post Broke Wave... youd be spot on (for me) if you replaced "wealth" with "income"

There's two mechanisms driving the wealth gap that have nothing to do with wages

Once you have wealth its relatively easy to grow. My 401K for example has seen annual returns of ~13% since I started it. If I stopped putting money into it now and kept seeing those gains, it will double in 6 years. So literally wealth can be "created" w/o working- as it should be, as this mechanism helps anybody with any kind of savings or retirement plan, not just the rich

And the cost of the basic things Americans need to live is on the rise at a pace far exceeding that of inflation. Wages have remained flat with respect to inflation... meaning they have kept pace with inflation and have been increasing. But the 3H's (housing, healthcare, higher education) have skyrocketed, largely due to bungled govt intervention. Its true that some companies are benefiting from this, but for 99% of Americans, there's no logical way they can argue "well my kid's college just hiked tuition 10% so I need a 10% raise". If the price of anything folks here bought worked like that they'd be outraged. An employer's responsibility to you is a safe work environment and a wage... what you do beyond that is your responsibility. Your employer didn't make you have kids, or buy that house you couldn't afford, etc.

Not to mention again Americans are making some choices that are killing our financial positions. We eat too much, which costs money for food and eventually healthcare (and is part of why healthcare is so damn expensive). We are buying bigger houses than we used to, which we often can't really afford. We buy too much fukking garbage- so many clothes get thrown away every day... a lot of Americans can't use their garages because they are just full of shyt they bought and never used, but have been paying interest on.

Like everything the successful approach has to be holistic. Companies should pay more, but Americans need to bring more to the table as far as skills and stuff go. Demanding $50K/yr for a job they could send to China for $5K/yr is not the wave... people should be looking to go into fields they can't ship away. Govt should stop meddling with shyt to its detriment but people need to make smarter decisions. Lot of idiots showed their asses in the housing bubble... if people bought smart it wouldn't have happened. Likewise kids taking on $200K in debt to go to NYU and NOT get an MBA don't deserve too much sympathy, though I do think the system rushes kids into college a bit too quickly. Americans need to stop fukking eating ourselves to death... its disgusting and totally unnecessary. Etc. etc. So there is this huge elephant in the room (PERSONAL CHOICE/ACCOUNTABILITY) that nobody seems to want to talk about. Stop assuming the roles of victims and take control of your situations.
 

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The jobs people were busting their ass at used to pay enough to provide a good life. If companies cant afford to pay these workers a good salary because of global competition then how do you explain their profits skyrocketing? If profits are going up then why arent the regular workers benefiting like the owners and executives are?

Illegal immigrants working for less than minimum wage are living in awful crime ridden neighborhoods, often with more than 1 family in the house, and are living a meager lifestyle. Why you think it is ok for the lifestyle of Americans to be reduced to that and its ok, i have no earthly idea. People want the quality of life they had decades ago. People arent asking for mansions and luxury cars. Just a good life. We should be able to provide that in America.

Do you not realize that Americans have the lowest amount of vacation time in the modern world, yet we work the most hours? Why do you think the bare minimum of 2 weeks vacation a year is fine? Its because you were brought up in this system thats why. People in other countries laugh at that shyt. Its offensive to them, yet for you thats perfectly fine. Unions are the reason we even get that paltry amount.

Some people love the Idea to see hard working people in 3rd world conditions.
 

acri1

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Good post Broke Wave... youd be spot on (for me) if you replaced "wealth" with "income"

There's two mechanisms driving the wealth gap that have nothing to do with wages

Once you have wealth its relatively easy to grow. My 401K for example has seen annual returns of ~13% since I started it. If I stopped putting money into it now and kept seeing those gains, it will double in 6 years. So literally wealth can be "created" w/o working- as it should be, as this mechanism helps anybody with any kind of savings or retirement plan, not just the rich

And the cost of the basic things Americans need to live is on the rise at a pace far exceeding that of inflation. Wages have remained flat with respect to inflation... meaning they have kept pace with inflation and have been increasing. But the 3H's (housing, healthcare, higher education) have skyrocketed, largely due to bungled govt intervention. Its true that some companies are benefiting from this, but for 99% of Americans, there's no logical way they can argue "well my kid's college just hiked tuition 10% so I need a 10% raise". If the price of anything folks here bought worked like that they'd be outraged. An employer's responsibility to you is a safe work environment and a wage... what you do beyond that is your responsibility. Your employer didn't make you have kids, or buy that house you couldn't afford, etc.

Not to mention again Americans are making some choices that are killing our financial positions. We eat too much, which costs money for food and eventually healthcare (and is part of why healthcare is so damn expensive). We are buying bigger houses than we used to, which we often can't really afford. We buy too much fukking garbage- so many clothes get thrown away every day... a lot of Americans can't use their garages because they are just full of shyt they bought and never used, but have been paying interest on.

Like everything the successful approach has to be holistic. Companies should pay more, but Americans need to bring more to the table as far as skills and stuff go. Demanding $50K/yr for a job they could send to China for $5K/yr is not the wave... people should be looking to go into fields they can't ship away. Govt should stop meddling with shyt to its detriment but people need to make smarter decisions. Lot of idiots showed their asses in the housing bubble... if people bought smart it wouldn't have happened. Likewise kids taking on $200K in debt to go to NYU and NOT get an MBA don't deserve too much sympathy, though I do think the system rushes kids into college a bit too quickly. Americans need to stop fukking eating ourselves to death... its disgusting and totally unnecessary. Etc. etc. So there is this huge elephant in the room (PERSONAL CHOICE/ACCOUNTABILITY) that nobody seems to want to talk about. Stop assuming the roles of victims and take control of your situations.

So I'm guessing every economic and social problem the country has is because everybody (other than you, I'm sure) is fat and stupid and lazy?

Ladies and gentleman, this is what happens when you watch too much FOX news. :snoop:
 

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So I'm guessing every economic and social problem the country has is because everybody (other than you, I'm sure) is fat and stupid and lazy?

Ladies and gentleman, this is what happens when you watch too much FOX news. :snoop:
Lets flip this stupid ass logic (which nothing I said alluded to).

So is every economic + social problem caused by corporate greed?
 
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