Ethiopia Protests thread

[Max B]

 

[Max B]

This is not good for the region. There will be more oromo refugees going into SL/somalia then usual.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

but i constructively criticizing my lost African brethren to enlighten/not insult

Just do it in a chill way is all I'm asking.

 

[Max B]

Ethiopia: Irreecha and Woyane Madness | nazret.com

ethiopia is getting to the breaking point.

 

[Max B]

wow ethiopia could've been the rising super power of africa now like typical african country its heading into tribal warfare

Ethiopian protesters attack factories in Africa's rising economic star

 

[Red Shield]

Again using your logic we could say the same about every country in the world at present. Its flawed logic, having a nation doesn't equate, guarantee, or mean their is a heavy impulse on invasion and expansion.
There is conflict when people feel they aren't being heard and they think they have to get it or someone else will.
If you can peacefully split, along tribal lines that majority recognize, then you would do will in stopping the competiting tribal issues in government, and transition more towards peaceful cooperation.

I look at the african situation the same way I look at the catalonians wanting to secede from spain, venetians wanting to secede from italy, scottish secession from the UK, UK secession from EU, Quebecan seccession from Canada. Texas from US. If you can secede and keep the peace what is the problem? The only problem is for those who want to consolidate power into one group. IMHO

It's not flawed logic.

I already said there would be states that wouldn't care to invade/expand their borders. But they would have to worry about those that do. People have conflict for more reasons than "We're not being heard."


If you can secede and keep the peace.. then of course there is no problem. But this is the real world, that is going to be the exception.

 

[Red Shield]

Hmm, that doesn't address how decades of genocidal war between Africans wouldn't make the continent poorer. Look at the devastation that World War I and World War II caused to Europe. Imagine that happening to Africa now.

Africa isn't as built up as Europe was during the World Wars.

You don't think decades of genocidal war wouldn't destroy Africa and leave it to be picked apart by foreigners? K

Picked apart...
it's already and has been for a very long while now, been getting picked apart by foreigners. Arabs, Whites, Indians, Asians, etc


no I don't think a genocidal/ethnic cleansing war would destroy Africa. Africa has to go through an organic nation building process.. which means there will need to be consolidation. Which means there are some tribes/peoples in Africa today that will cease to exist in the future.


I know how this shyt sounds. I know Africa and her diaspora love to be hopeful optimistic about things. But.. the game changed hundreds of years ago

 

[David_TheMan]

It's not flawed logic.

I already said there would be states that wouldn't care to invade/expand their borders. But they would have to worry about those that do. People have conflict for more reasons than "We're not being heard."


If you can secede and keep the peace.. then of course there is no problem. But this is the real world, that is going to be the exception.

The same worrying about other states applies today as things stand though.
Most of the conlifct in a state usually has to do with we are not being heard, we are not integrated, we mean nothing to those in power in society.

But there has been examples of peaceful secession in the real world, and my only argument is lets give it a try in africa, what is wrong with promoting that option?

Re: Your first point
We agree a lot on the cause of ethnic nationalism within multinational states (particularly in the European context). However, the answer need not be secession all the time. Especially given the consequences of ethno-nationalism on a continent like Africa. I'll explain further in my second reply.

Re: Your second point
Africa being poorer does have a bearing. Why don't you realize that decades of warfare on a continent that's already poor will leave it poorer?
War is among the most destructive things you can do to a nation. If you want Africa to progress, why more war? War is a huge part of the reason why the DRC is so fukked up today. War is the biggest reason why Ethiopia's GDP per capita/human capital is so low. Ask the South Sudanese is they want more war.

- What's also curious is that you're trying to put words in my mouth. Genocide/ethnic cleansing can occur within peaceful and non-peaceful contexts. I've already given you past examples. Your decision to ignore India-Pakistan partition and Nigeria's Civil War is a huge detriment to your arguments.

- Finally, I never claimed that peaceful dissolution led to the World Wars. I claimed that ethnic nationalism did.

Re: Your third point

Umm....you're argument is that large states in Africa already controlled by outsiders. You don't believe that if African states were on average the size of Benin that the continent would be weak? Do you not understand that there's a correlation between state size and power???
Look at China, India, the US, Russia etc. etc. Do you think it's a coincidence that they all have over 100 million people?

- There's no guarantee that there'd be less corruption in these small ethnic states. You can't prove that there would be. Moreover, internal African conflicts would decrease in exchange for external African conflicts. Moreover, how are you going to divide African states? Nigeria has over 250 ethnic groups. You want all of these groups to have a country?

In conclusion, you're going to do a lot of leg-work to prove your claims given that they have no basis in reality/do not negate the harms I've outlined.

1) I don't understand how one could be against peaceful secession, sorry.

2) Again being poor has nothing to do with peaceful secession and dissolution of a corrupt central state. On top of that, what i'm proposing isn't war or a resolution that leads to more war, so talking about war makes no sense in any context to what I've presented.

3) My argument is size is no deterrant from foreign powers taking advantage or wresting control from a nation as evidenced by reality in Africa today. The size of the population means nothing to the argument I've presented against your initial contention.

I never said there is a guarantee against corruption, I said in the event of corruption their is a closer feedback to the people to check on it, rather than in a larger government over more diverse people that is usually able to aid in corruption and entrench themselves by paying off their base/tribal/religious/etc.

Again you claim external conflict would increase, yet you've not provided me a reason why external conflict would increase. seperate nigeria into 250 individual sovereign nations, I don't see how this would cause warfare or change much of anything regarding peaceful coexistance.

In conclusion, your argument rests on a great deal of unfounded assumptions imho.

That said we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Before I plunge into my response are you a Black African? Have you been to Africa? Have you studied Africa?

I"m a black american.
I'm just offering my opinion the same way I do regarding european state of affairs.
If you think I"m missing someting though, please let me know, I'm enjoying the convo and I always like to learn more.

 

[Misreeya]

Re: Your first point
We agree a lot on the cause of ethnic nationalism within multinational states (particularly in the European context). However, the answer need not be secession all the time. Especially given the consequences of ethno-nationalism on a continent like Africa. I'll explain further in my second reply.

Re: Your second point
Africa being poorer does have a bearing. Why don't you realize that decades of warfare on a continent that's already poor will leave it poorer?
War is among the most destructive things you can do to a nation. If you want Africa to progress, why more war? War is a huge part of the reason why the DRC is so fukked up today. War is the biggest reason why Ethiopia's GDP per capita/human capital is so low. Ask the South Sudanese is they want more war.

I don't get your correlation here in regards to war, and people wanting independence. With Sudan and South Sudan, when the more they 3 million South Sudanese left peacefully throughout Sudan, and the transportation was assisted by the regime and other agency without incident. I will admit some people were happy for them to leave, unfortunately some idiots want the Darfurian and Kordofan to do likewise. As far as the war in South Sudan, that is a leadership issue, which has nothing to do with Sudan. Question you do not support South Sudan independence? What do you think would had been a better solution? I will like to here your insight.

or @KidStranglehold

I had a couple of ideas, but i will like to hear you guys insights.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

The same worrying about other states applies today as things stand though.
Most of the conlifct in a state usually has to do with we are not being heard, we are not integrated, we mean nothing to those in power in society.

But there has been examples of peaceful secession in the real world, and my only argument is lets give it a try in africa, what is wrong with promoting that option?



1) I don't understand how one could be against peaceful secession, sorry.

2) Again being poor has nothing to do with peaceful secession and dissolution of a corrupt central state. On top of that, what i'm proposing isn't war or a resolution that leads to more war, so talking about war makes no sense in any context to what I've presented.

3) My argument is size is no deterrant from foreign powers taking advantage or wresting control from a nation as evidenced by reality in Africa today. The size of the population means nothing to the argument I've presented against your initial contention.

I never said there is a guarantee against corruption, I said in the event of corruption their is a closer feedback to the people to check on it, rather than in a larger government over more diverse people that is usually able to aid in corruption and entrench themselves by paying off their base/tribal/religious/etc.

Again you claim external conflict would increase, yet you've not provided me a reason why external conflict would increase. seperate nigeria into 250 individual sovereign nations, I don't see how this would cause warfare or change much of anything regarding peaceful coexistance.

In conclusion, your argument rests on a great deal of unfounded assumptions imho.

That said we'll just have to agree to disagree.



I"m a black american.
I'm just offering my opinion the same way I do regarding european state of affairs.
If you think I"m missing someting though, please let me know, I'm enjoying the convo and I always like to learn more.

The more people we have on the Root the better, even if we don't all agree. Perhaps in the Hegelian clash, the synthesis will bring forth something good.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

I don't get your correlation here in regards to war, and people wanting independence. With Sudan and South Sudan, when the more they 3 million South Sudanese left peacefully throughout Sudan, and the transportation was assisted by the regime and other agency without incident. I will admit some people were happy for them to leave, unfortunately some idiots want the Darfurian and Kordofan to do likewise. As far as the war in South Sudan, that is a leadership issue, which has nothing to do with Sudan. Question you do not support South Sudan independence? What do you think would had been a better solution? I will like to here your insight.

or @KidStranglehold

I had a couple of ideas, but i will like to hear you guys insights.

My point was referring to individuals in this thread who want Africans to go through an 'organic' process of war and state-building to create more homogeneous states. In that process, states which already experience a great deal of suffering because of conflict, like South Sudan, would experience a lot more. Especially since South Sudan is not ethnically homogeneous.

I'm not against territories of countries democratically seceding from states. My point is a bit more nuanced than that. My point can be summarized like this:
1) Africa should not wage endless destructive wars to create ethnically homogeneous states. It is immoral (i.e., the elimination of smaller ethnic groups across Africa) and on a pragmatic level - it would destroy many African countries politically and economically while leaving the continent even more vulnerable to outside intrusion.
2) Recognize that the act of secession (peaceful or not) may bring about war.
3) In many scenarios, it is better for ethnic groups within post-colonial Africa to go for increased economic, cultural and political autonomy instead of outright independence. More decentralized states.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

So, let's apply my ideas to Oromia. With my thoughts in mind, I can see Oromo activists not arguing for waging a war of secession against the Ethiopian government. After all, if the government collapses a situation worst than the previous civil war 1974-1991 may occur.

In addition, if the war ends and Oromia manages to survive (remember, there are no guaranteed victors!) it would be landlocked and potentially surrounded by hostile enemies who would limit its access to world markets.

 

[Max B]

So, let's apply my ideas to Oromia. With my thoughts in mind, I can see Oromo activists not arguing for waging a war of secession against the Ethiopian government. After all, if the government collapses a situation worst than the previous civil war 1974-1991 may occur.

In addition, if the war ends and Oromia manages to survive (remember, there are no guaranteed victors!) it would be landlocked and potentially surrounded by hostile enemies who would limit its access to world markets.

Wouldn't that depend on which groups who get the strangled hold of the government?

 

[Max B]

looks like the oromo rebels are in full force

 

[Red Shield]

The same worrying about other states applies today as things stand though.
Most of the conlifct in a state usually has to do with we are not being heard, we are not integrated, we mean nothing to those in power in society.

But there has been examples of peaceful secession in the real world, and my only argument is lets give it a try in africa, what is wrong with promoting that option?

Ain't nothing wrong with promoting/giving that option a try breh. Just understand.. that it probably won't work out