Does Immigration Actually Threaten American Culture

The Real

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here we go....
Define american culture? Individualism and freedom?

GTFOH. We haven't had this dance in a long time. Your definition of "american culture" has always been some pie in the sky idealistic, unrealistic, "made for a tee-shirt" slogan.

For starters teh guy in your article is comparing changing opinion on from a geocentric to heliocentric like there was some "choice" in the matter. Facts dictated the change in this paradigm, not choice. People didn't decide "imply because" that they would believe the sun was the center of the universe, it became common knowledge. Yes it did effect some of the beliefs, but the illusion of choice is false in his example...just saying...

What's funny is he says, "It was greek ideas not culture" but then says, "It’s rational advocates—not numbers—that bring ideas into effect." really failing to admit that NUMBERS ARE RATIONAL.

He touts england's "freedom" during the 1820 but fails to mention slavery wasn't abolished until 1833.

I do agree that an attempt to limit immigration out of fear that it'll change is dumb. Change brings about good things when cultures collide...eventually. It's an evolutionary process of sorts, survival of the fittest (so i agree to a degree). I don't think it's "freedom and individuality" that define american culture, those two things exist in many, many parts of the world, even in those where we see a lot of immigrants migrating to the USA.


Let's also not leave out the sheer ignorance in his account of belief. He's basically pushing an extremely simplified form of rational choice theory that doesn't measure up to the facts. If most people are rational, then are the stats that are biased against him also products of that rationality? What we're left with is a situation where rationality is a meaningless term, since all decisions must be its products, even though the majority of people don't necessarily accept what he would call the most "rational" of the choices presented to them, or a situation where rationality doesn't explain choices fully. Let's take a look at this foolishness:

Yet not a single one of us inherits our ideas. We each choose which to accept or reject through a process of learning. And while demographics may play a small role in the ideas we might consider, they don’t, and can’t determine our choices.

This is a laughable point. In a place, say, rural Pakistan, where media access is rare and the society is overwhelmingly homogenous, does a child have the choice to reject what they are told from their earliest days as a thinking being? They have little access to alternative ideas, no way of empirically testing many of the ideas that are transmitted to them, etc. If this situation can be called a situation of choice (which it must, in the author's scenario, where "not a single one of us" doesn't ultimately choose our beliefs) then we are left with the problem of explaining how this rationality leads to entire communities believing in things that are markedly untrue, untested, and well, irrational, even in the face of facts to the contrary. The overwhelming majority of people raised in a particular religion, for example, remain within it, so the idea that demographics mean little doesn't even require much to disprove. Another way to put it is to ask if Eve made a rational choice to be with Adam- the author wants you to believe that she did.

This crosses over to this next point:

Moreover, inherent in our intellectual decision-making is the ability to change our minds. When presented with better arguments, evidence and theories, we as individuals can — and often do — change our ideas; irrespective of what others might happen to think.

So why does half of America still not believe in evolution? Why does at least a 3rd of the population believe that Obama is a Muslim? Why do so many people vote on scenarios involving fictions like "death panels" and "socialism?" We're a country with no shortage of access to all the information needed to make a thoroughly informed choice, and yet people are not swayed by evidence. In other words, if the author responds to my Pakistan scenario by stating that if there was more access to information, the choices of the people to believe would change, well, the case of America provides a serious challenge to that simplistic claim. Once again, the problem is that the author is either forced to claim that the half of America that doesn't believe in evolution made their choices rationally, or that rationality is much more complicated, and not alone or even necessarily the dominant factor in determining belief.
 

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well its an interesting topic, in essence he is saying white americans should not be worried about slowly becoming a minority and losing the essence of what made america great, because the superior will eventually dominate, just like greek culture won over roman culture, american culture (freedom and indivdualism) will win out over any culture that comes into the US because american culture is superior

he is basically responding to this school of thought The Hispanic Challenge - By Samuel P. Huntington | Foreign Policy

i agree with the the first guy but i kinda also agree with huntington in that bilingualism in the us is a bad thing, i think immigration is good but it has to be diverse immigration, it cant just be an influx of the same type of people

Do you agree with his message (that white culture = superior)?

And what is this link between American culture and freedom/individualism you speak of? This culture of xenophobia and ignorance? This culture that handed folks different freedoms based on the color of their skin not even 50 years ago? This culture that still practices slavery and imperialism on a moral authority founded on nothing but military + economic might? This culture that re-elects officials who sign away their fundamental individual liberties? This culture of entitlement, laziness and flash over substance? This culture of corporate quid pro quo and cronyism at the expense of the currency & rights of individuals? What American culture are you referring to?
 

The Real

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Do you agree with his message (that white culture = superior)?

And what is this link between American culture and freedom/individualism you speak of? This culture of xenophobia and ignorance? This culture that handed folks different freedoms based on the color of their skin not even 50 years ago? This culture that still practices slavery and imperialism on a moral authority founded on nothing but military + economic might? This culture that re-elects officials who sign away their fundamental individual liberties? This culture of entitlement, laziness and flash over substance? This culture of corporate quid pro quo and cronyism at the expense of the currency & rights of individuals? What American culture are you referring to?

:whew:

I wouldn't hold your breath for real answers.
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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I'm saying, I even agree with him on some things, but in every argument, he just skirts around logical critiques of his claims, doesn't yield an inch, and just repeats the same shyt over and over, often verbatim. Then has the nerve to act all smug. It's pretty pointless to bother talking to him.
 

theworldismine13

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here we go....
Define american culture? Individualism and freedom?

GTFOH. We haven't had this dance in a long time. Your definition of "american culture" has always been some pie in the sky idealistic, unrealistic, "made for a tee-shirt" slogan.

For starters teh guy in your article is comparing changing opinion on from a geocentric to heliocentric like there was some "choice" in the matter. Facts dictated the change in this paradigm, not choice. People didn't decide "imply because" that they would believe the sun was the center of the universe, it became common knowledge. Yes it did effect some of the beliefs, but the illusion of choice is false in his example...just saying...

What's funny is he says, "It was greek ideas not culture" but then says, "It’s rational advocates—not numbers—that bring ideas into effect." really failing to admit that NUMBERS ARE RATIONAL.

He touts england's "freedom" during the 1820 but fails to mention slavery wasn't abolished until 1833.

I do agree that an attempt to limit immigration out of fear that it'll change is dumb. Change brings about good things when cultures collide...eventually. It's an evolutionary process of sorts, survival of the fittest (so i agree to a degree). I don't think it's "freedom and individuality" that define american culture, those two things exist in many, many parts of the world, even in those where we see a lot of immigrants migrating to the USA.

You can define American culture anyway you want, that's just the way I chose to define in reference to the article

The evidence for heliocentric theory vs geocentric was not obvious, it took literally centuries to debunk using piecemeal evidence, it is only in hind site that heliocentric theory is obvious

I
In the same way, it's not clear that freedom and individualism produces more benefits to a society, some people beleive these things are irrelevant, this article assumes that the reader already agrees that freedom and individualism are important and contributed the the growth of america

So that is why the heliocentric vs geocentric analogy is appropriate, as we speak there is an ongoing argument about the importance of individual freedom in developing a society

As to the slavery issue i dont think it invalidates the importance of freedom and individualism, there were a lot of countries that engaged in slavery and did noy reach the economic level of the us or england

Would say even though freedom and liberty was not extended to everybody in England and the us, relative to other countries of white people england and the us provided more freedom and liberty than other comparable countries, so it does provide an explanation for the rise of the uk and the us

Your last paragraph is silly, you are saying the samething the author said

most places that have freedom and liberty have it because of the influence of america and the UK
 

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You can define American culture anyway you want, that's just the way I chose to define in reference to the article

The evidence for heliocentric theory vs geocentric was not obvious, it took literally centuries to debunk using piecemeal evidence, it is only in hind site that heliocentric theory is obvious

I
In the same way, it's not clear that freedom and individualism produces more benefits to a society, some people beleive these things are irrelevant, this article assumes that the reader already agrees that freedom and individualism are important and contributed the the growth of america

So that is why the heliocentric vs geocentric analogy is appropriate, as we speak there is an ongoing argument about the importance of individual freedom in developing a society

As to the slavery issue i dont think it invalidates the importance of freedom and individualism, there were a lot of countries that engaged in slavery and did noy reach the economic level of the us or england

Would say even though freedom and liberty was not extended to everybody in England and the us, relative to other countries of white people england and the us provided more freedom and liberty than other comparable countries, so it does provide an explanation for the rise of the uk and the us

Your last paragraph is silly, you are saying the samething the author said

most places that have freedom and liberty have it because of the influence of america and the UK
Your whole premise is flawed, based on the fact that there are large swaths of Americans who aren't free, and that American foreign policy is still very oppressive depending on where one is in the world

You can keep spewing the same garbage day in and day out but its still garbage + untrue
 

theworldismine13

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This is a laughable point. In a place, say, rural Pakistan, where media access is rare and the society is overwhelmingly homogenous, does a child have the choice to reject what they are told from their earliest days as a thinking being? They have little access to alternative ideas, no way of empirically testing many of the ideas that are transmitted to them, etc. If this situation can be called a situation of choice (which it must, in the author's scenario, where "not a single one of us" doesn't ultimately choose our beliefs) then we are left with the problem of explaining how this rationality leads to entire communities believing in things that are markedly untrue, untested, and well, irrational, even in the face of facts to the contrary. The overwhelming majority of people raised in a particular religion, for example, remain within it, so the idea that demographics mean little doesn't even require much to disprove. Another way to put it is to ask if Eve made a rational choice to be with Adam- the author wants you to believe that she did.

its pretty obvious he was talking about US residents that have a wide access to information and its pretty obvious he is talking about decades and centuries

so im not sure how using the example of pakistan villager or instant decision making applies

This crosses over to this next point:



So why does half of America still not believe in evolution? Why does at least a 3rd of the population believe that Obama is a Muslim? Why do so many people vote on scenarios involving fictions like "death panels" and "socialism?" We're a country with no shortage of access to all the information needed to make a thoroughly informed choice, and yet people are not swayed by evidence. In other words, if the author responds to my Pakistan scenario by stating that if there was more access to information, the choices of the people to believe would change, well, the case of America provides a serious challenge to that simplistic claim. Once again, the problem is that the author is either forced to claim that the half of America that doesn't believe in evolution made their choices rationally, or that rationality is much more complicated, and not alone or even necessarily the dominant factor in determining belief.

so you are saying your political and religious views are the most logical on the planet and anybody that disagrees with you is making an illogical decision?
 

theworldismine13

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Your whole premise is flawed, based on the fact that there are large swaths of Americans who aren't free, and that American foreign policy is still very oppressive depending on where one is in the world

You can keep spewing the same garbage day in and day out but its still garbage + untrue

people arent free relative to what?
 

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Do you agree with his message (that white culture = superior)?

i agree that the concepts of liberty and individual freedom are superior and should be the basis of society


And what is this link between American culture and freedom/individualism you speak of? This culture of xenophobia and ignorance? This culture that handed folks different freedoms based on the color of their skin not even 50 years ago? This culture that still practices slavery and imperialism on a moral authority founded on nothing but military + economic might? This culture that re-elects officials who sign away their fundamental individual liberties? This culture of entitlement, laziness and flash over substance? This culture of corporate quid pro quo and cronyism at the expense of the currency & rights of individuals? What American culture are you referring to?

again, you can define American culture anyway you want because there are different aspects to it

but the important think is that people can sit around and argue about it, that is why freedom and liberty are important, the fact that your rant is basically about the violation of individual freedom is basically an endorsement of the concept of individual freedom and the reality that the concept of individual freedom has been carried forward by the UK and the US

i dont defend white racism but i do give props to american culture for being on of the first people to institutionalize the ideas of individual freedom, and that laid the foundation for the expansion of individual freedom to other groups besides white men with property
 

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Your whole premise is flawed, based on the fact that there are large swaths of Americans who aren't free, and that American foreign policy is still very oppressive depending on where one is in the world

You can keep spewing the same garbage day in and day out but its still garbage + untrue

i dont think so, if people arent free or are being oppressed, you more than likely would still have to resort to the american concepts of individual freedom and democracy to make your case
 

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people arent free relative to what?
A kid unfortunate enough to have to live in a neighborhood where cops are ordered by their superiors to harass & detain citizens w/o cause is not as free as a kid in a neighborhood where cops protect and serve

A dude w/brown skin and an Arabic name is not as free as John Smith going through airport security

A Mexican immigrant, legal or not, in a state that is openly + vehemently anti-Latino immigrant is not as free as an American or non-Latino immigrant

Theres oppression occuring right here within American borders... I'm not even going to get into what we are doing abroad. So the idea that America is this bastion of "institutionalized freedom" is garbage. There are many pretty widespread + egregious examples of American institutionalized oppression

Like I said in our previous exchanges you can keep sucking corporate America's dikk and ignoring the injustices that are still taking place as we speak... That's your choice... but don't get haughty when nikkas call a spade a spade

Im unsubscribing cause you dont have the capacity to think but I said my piece :manny:
 
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