Does anybody on the Root follow Thomas Sowell? Thomas Sowell appreciation thread!

AJaRuleStan

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Sowell sucks.

Whenever someone hits you with the "Listen to me because I deal with facts, while the other side deals with emotion" (an emotional appeal in an of itself) you know you're in for some horseshyt. Our species is divined with the ability of an elevated consciousness, so to say one's opinion lacks emotion is to say its not appropriately human at all. We are hardwired for subjectivity.

"Listen to me because I deal with facts, while the other side deals with emotion" -- Thomas Sowell really said this? Hmm, citation needed! Because I'm smelling a strawman.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make with the rest of the jargon you posted.


We know Sowell is governed by subjectivity, because his views dont stray from a strict republican orthodoxy
I really don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Thomas Sowell views in general can not be taken as objective because X said something similar? If so, that's nonsensical -- just because B agreed or said something similar, doesn't mean A's claim is false, or true for that matter.

Logically, if one wanted to reason about the validity of another's claim being true or false, they would back check the facts that was presented. And that's not what you're doing. What you're are doing is attacking the speaker which is irrelevant.

"liberals are always wrong/racism is overstated" bellowingd. This of course is an impossibility, and true intellectuals try to apprehend all available possibilities. Sowell is beyond selective.
Yeah, I am gonna need a citation on that one fam, because I'm smelling a strawman!

When it comes to the black experience and the diminished black state, there are a universe of historical and current variables that he dismisses. There's of course the psychological residue of slavery both for the oppressed and dominant

Here, If we wanted to be serious about evidence, we might compare where blacks stood a hundred years after the end of slavery with where they stood after 30 years of the liberal welfare state. Took me 1 sec to find a article were he takes facts gathered about black progress in the wake of slavery and than draws conclusion how that event has caused or impacted variables like unemployment rate, crime, black family unit, and black culture.

Also, next time when you say he doesn't talk about X subject, provide the evidence for it.

Literally I could go on and on, but the unique experience of the black American is something Sowell hasnt even attempted to analyze with sincerity. His position from jump has always been "racism didnt bother me much, so it cant really exist" type narcissism.
I have this funny feeling, that he didn't actually say that or imply that, and instead you're just attempting to destroy another one of your own strawmans. What is this? The third one. How about you stop attacking him and attack his specific views that you don't agree with, so we can have a proper discussion.

Posting videos from 30-40 years ago doesnt help us much. Sowell, like the republican party of last generation, placed a value on intellectual rigor that is today non-existent. Thats why you can currently catch Sowell supporting the likes of George Zimmerman (what does that have to do with conservative politics..oh I know its anti-black thats why). Sowell's work can largely be taken apart by anyone who has taken a community college beginners course in economics and 20th century race relations.
You make a lot of claims lol, but show zero evidence to back any of it up.
 
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No_bammer_weed

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@AJaRuleStan

Strawman? LOL...In exchanges like these intellectual honesty helps aid things. You've already acknowledged that Sowell is popular among racists, or at least his theories are attractive to the far right. So we're to believe he's captured this type of support by acknowledging racist treatment against blacks? Thats illogical, son.

So we know based on pure logic that Sowell is not making racial discrimination any sort of centerpiece of his arguments because if he did white right wingers would not take to him, so I dont need to wade thru your "prove he did or didnt say this!" hysteria.

No, Sowell is popular in right wing circles because he has consistently downplayed racism as playing much of a role in the black condition. He's focused on things like black culture, and "liberal policies" like welfare. These are racial dog whistles, and we understand racial dog whistles as proxies that are a substitute for blatantly racist arguments that are untenable in a post-civil rights society (Donald trump is challenging this idea with the populism of his aggressive racism).

So when Sowell eliminates or diminishes racial discrimination from his theories and pinpoints "black culture" his audience understands this as blacks having inferior morals, values, work ethic, intelligence, being the true guiding forces for their condition and not racism. When Sowell targets "welfare" as a variable that has hurt the black community, his audience understands that as a reflection of black people's collective laziness and their collective decision to not work rather than welfare rates being an end result of a lack of economic enterprise and investment (no jobs) in their neighborhoods. When Sowell babbles about blacks being "better off" during the early 20th century when racism was still overt, his audience understands this as racism being an irrelevant variable to the black experience because blacks were fine when racism was prevalent before this shadowy and ill defined "black culture" took hold.

Racism and racial discrimination has shaped the black experience. Red herrings, slight of hands, selective stats, and illogic are the mechanisms used to distract some from this rule of American life.
 
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AJaRuleStan

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>"Listen to me because I deal with facts, while the other side deals with emotion"
>"liberals are always wrong"
>"racism didnt bother me much, so it cant really exist"

I don't know whats so funny, you claimed Sowell stated these things or implied them, and than made a counter argument against them, but you didn't actually establish if those things you said about Sowell is in fact his positions, that's a strawman fallacy. So If these are your central gripes with Sowell, surely you can present the evidence where he makes these assertions.

You've already acknowledged that Sowell is popular among racists, or at least his theories are attractive to the far right. So we're to believe he's captured this type of support by acknowledging racist treatment against blacks? Thats illogical, son.
You may not want to believe it, but facts are facts, and arguing that Thomas hasn't weighed in on racial discrimination is objectively false just like when you implied that he didn't factor in the effects of slavery. Seriously, Idk why you think it's more sound to reason on the basis of who likes who, and not on the basis of evidence.

The first federal minimum wage law, the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, was passed in part explicitly to prevent black construction workers from "taking jobs" from white construction workers by working for lower wages. It was not meant to protect black workers from "exploitation" but to protect white workers from competition. - Thomas Sowell

No, Sowell is popular in right wing circles because he has consistently downplayed racism as playing much of a role in the black condition. He's focused on things like black culture, and "liberal policies" like welfare. These are racial dog whistles, and we understand racial dog whistles as proxies that are a substitute for blatantly racist arguments that are untenable in a post-civil rights society (Donald trump is challenging this idea with the populism of his aggressive racism).
I really don't care about how right wingers choose to reference him though. It's completely irrelevant when comes to evaluating his claims as true or false. I don't reason, pass judgement, or draw conclusions out of some form of bias. I reason, pass judgement, and draw conclusions based on how a specific belief was tested against the facts. Maybe you should try doing that too!

So when Sowell eliminates or diminishes racial discrimination from his theories and pinpoints "black culture" his audience understands this as blacks having inferior morals, values, work ethic, intelligence, being the true guiding forces for their condition and not racism. When Sowell targets "welfare" as a variable that has hurt the black community, his audience understands that as a reflection of black people's collective laziness and their collective decision to not work rather than welfare rates being an end result of a lack of economic enterprise and investment (no jobs) in their neighborhoods. When Sowell babbles about blacks being "better off" during the early 20th century when racism was still overt, his audience understands this as racism being an irrelevant variable to the black experience because blacks were fine when racism was prevalent before this shadowy and ill defined "black culture" took hold.
You are sure are making alot assumption about what his audience thinks, are you in the mind reading business? Seriously though, lets just assume that his audience does indeed makes these gross misinterpretations of his views like concluding his talking-points about culture is really code for intelligence level,(What a reach lol) who cares. It's not his interpretation, and that's all that should matter.

Honestly, you have this recurring logic that's so irrational to me. So much of your judgement on Tom is based on who likes him or some false perception you made up like this, "racism didnt bother me much, so it cant really exist". It makes me wonder do you even care about the validity of his arguments, or does your bias run that deep.

Racism and racial discrimination has shaped the black experience. Red herrings, slight of hands, selective stats, and illogic are the mechanisms used to distract some from this rule of American life.
Instead of the rhetoric; can you please just go point by point on the claims you disagree with tom on and actually prove it wrong with hard evidence. I think that's fair.
 
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Concerning VIolence

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Sowell sucks.

Whenever someone hits you with the "Listen to me because I deal with facts, while the other side deals with emotion" (an emotional appeal in an of itself) you know you're in for some horseshyt. Our species is divined with the ability of an elevated consciousness, so to say one's opinion lacks emotion is to say its not appropriately human at all. We are hardwired for subjectivity. Its part of the theory that stats often dont lie, but liars use stats.

We know Sowell is governed by subjectivity, because his views dont stray from a strict republican orthodoxy, and "liberals are always wrong/racism is overstated" bellowingd. This of course is an impossibility, and true intellectuals try to apprehend all available possibilities. Sowell is beyond selective.

When it comes to the black experience and the diminished black state, there are a universe of historical and current variables that he dismisses. There's of course the psychological residue of slavery both for the oppressed and dominant, there are public and private enterprises that openly discriminated against blacks during the mid 20th century via redlining and va home loans (a critical period of wealth building in america), there's the spate of riots during the 60s in black neighborhoods which drove businesses from areas that would become economically depressed hoods, there's evaporation of low skilled factory work that disappeared from cities hitting blacks the hardest....

Literally I could go on and on, but the unique experience of the black American is something Sowell hasnt even attempted to analyze with sincerity. His position from jump has always been "racism didnt bother me much, so it cant really exist" type narcissism. Posting videos from 30-40 years ago doesnt help us much. Sowell, like the republican party of last generation, placed a value on intellectual rigor that is today non-existent. Thats why you can currently catch Sowell supporting the likes of George Zimmerman (what does that have to do with conservative politics..oh I know its anti-black thats why). Sowell's work can largely be taken apart by anyone who has taken a community college beginners course in economics and 20th century race relations.

:wtf:Can't believe I'm about to dap No bammer fukking weed.
 

Kitsch

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@AJaRuleStan you seem to be interested in issues regarding African Americans. Thats great. What race are you?
ozbid2Q.jpg


:jbhmm:
 

No_bammer_weed

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Instead of the rhetoric; can you please just go point by point on the claims you disagree with tom on and actually prove it wrong with hard evidence. I think that's fair.

Since this thread got upped, I'll bite.

Sowell and his ilk have continually tried to connect welfare benefits with a sort of "worsening" of black culture and outcomes. Specifically when it comes to out of wedlock births in the great society era.

b2427_chart9_600px.ashx


A simple google search helps us to understand that out of wedlock births were an issue with black people well before welfare benefits were established, as it was many times the rate of the white community dating back to the 1940s a time when it was socially dishonorable to have a child out of marriage. The graph seems to suggest that external pressures placed on black households have exacerbated poorer outcomes. Seems reasonable, no? (Ever hear of the Moynihan report?)

Sowell knows this, so why does he continue to engineer a dishonest profile that problems within the black community materialized because of welfare benefits? Well, Ive already explained why he does it in earlier posts.

And those rates for other "races" have risen at the same rate as blacks. White out of wedlock birth rates were less than 5% and now sit at close to 30%, and yet Ive never seen Sowell try to connect an availability of welfare benefits to the statistic rising among whites.

I havent seen a compelling study that proves any sort of real relationship between providing welfare benefits and out of wedlock births. Especially when considering that our set of welfare benefits are the stingiest in the world among high performing GDP nations.

Responsible statistical inference, and connecting real theories to broader populations and locating them in their proper context is what separates intellectuals from ideologues. Sowell is the latter.
 
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frankster

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Read his boook never agreed with him.....but must admit a lot of what he says make
Thomas Sowell is a black economist, intellectual, world historian, and author, but more importantly a man who relies on facts rather than feelings unlike a lot of people who discuss racial, social, and economic issues. It's what has attracted me to him more than any other black intellectual, leader, or modern day civil rights activist. I know when he makes an assertion, he has made it on the basis of hard evidence that he can cite right there on the spot.

Instead of doing a write up on in his specific beliefs pertaining to black issues and black history, I will just post a few videos of him explaining his views in his own words which is a privilege to watch imo because his efficiency with words is a marvel to behold.






Read his book never agreed with him.....but must admit a lot of what he says make sense.

Take for instance in the video above his opinion discrimination and racism, not to worry about racism but worry about discrimination sounds good and makes sense.
The problem is.....It is racist beliefs that leads to bigotry and racially motivated discrimination......which left his black construction workers underpaid and abused.
What he missed is that its not about working or having a job - the slave had both of those.....It is about being but being paid a living wage
He is right when it comes to skills and education being important but he is wrong if he believes a white racist is going to higher a skilled or educated black often referred as "uppity N-word" over a whites.
 

King Kreole

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Since this thread got upped, I'll bite.

Sowell and his ilk have continually tried to connect welfare benefits with a sort of "worsening" of black culture and outcomes. Specifically when it comes to out of wedlock births in the great society era.

b2427_chart9_600px.ashx


A simple google search helps us to understand that out of wedlock births were an issue with black people well before welfare benefits were established, as it was many times the rate of the white community dating back to the 1940s a time when it was socially dishonorable to have a child out of marriage. The graph seems to suggest that external pressures placed on black households have exacerbated poorer outcomes. Seems reasonable, no? (Ever hear of the Moynihan report?)

Sowell knows this, so why does he continue to engineer a dishonest profile that problems within the black community materialized because of welfare benefits? Well, Ive already explained why he does it in earlier posts.

And those rates for other "races" have risen at the same rate as blacks. White out of wedlock birth rates were less than 5% and now sit at close to 30%, and yet Ive never seen Sowell try to connect an availability of welfare benefits to the statistic rising among whites.

I havent seen a compelling study that proves any sort of real relationship between providing welfare benefits and out of wedlock births. Especially when considering that our set of welfare benefits are the stingiest in the world among high performing GDP nations.

Responsible statistical inference, and connecting real theories to broader populations and locating them in their proper context is what separates intellectuals from ideologues. Sowell is the latter.
Sowell's claim is that welfare benefits constitute the external pressures placed on black households that are suggested by the graph. He posits that the psycho-social effects of living under a system of welfare are responsible for exacerbating the already disproportionate status of broken black homes. I fail to see what is dishonest about this. From all the videos I've seen of Sowell, he has never claimed that blacks were given a fair shake or were on an equal footing with whites pre-welfare. He just sees the welfare state as institutionally strengthening this historic condition.
 

No_bammer_weed

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Sowell's claim is that welfare benefits constitute the external pressures placed on black households that are suggested by the graph. He posits that the psycho-social effects of living under a system of welfare are responsible for exacerbating the already disproportionate status of broken black homes. I fail to see what is dishonest about this. From all the videos I've seen of Sowell, he has never claimed that blacks were given a fair shake or were on an equal footing with whites pre-welfare. He just sees the welfare state as institutionally strengthening this historic condition.

Its nice that Sowell "sees" things, and he likes to make "claims", but Im talking about compelling and verifiable evidence that supports what he "sees" and establishes real relationships. There is a significant difference between general correlation, and casual factors ---- he's simply making reductionist claims that are ideologically based (I would say dishonest). I can say that the breakup of the Jackson 5 and the fall of Motown records "exacerbated" the negative outcomes in the black community. Whats the difference?

Economically speaking, redlining and an evaporation of low skilled work that blacks relied on due to the industrial restructuring ,and relocation of those jobs from cities to the suburbs (making it difficult for blacks to access) were the type of ' external pressures' that made life even more difficult for black homes in an already existing world of intense discrimination. These casual factors are empirically supported thru many studies.

Where are the studies that support welfare being a causal factor for black social dislocation? Countries from around the world have far more generous social safety net packages --- whats their relationship with that structure and out of wedlock birth rates? Why just the focus on American blacks? The variables of limited economic enterprise opportunity leading to poor outcomes is the relationship of strength --- you think if black neighborhoods had great schools and great available jobs, that welfare would be a "pressure" on black families? How could it? The theory is borderline preposterous.
 

King Kreole

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Its nice that Sowell "sees" things, and he likes to make "claims", but Im talking about compelling and verifiable evidence that supports what he "sees" and establishes real relationships. There is a significant difference between general correlation, and casual factors ---- he's simply making reductionist claims that are ideologically based (I would say dishonest). I can say that the breakup of the Jackson 5 and the fall of Motown records "exacerbated" the negative outcomes in the black community. Whats the difference?

This is a legitimate criticism, but not one that I think applies to Sowell in this case. He provides examples from many different racial groups and time frames and uses statistics to draw his conclusions. One of the main takeaways from Sowell is that our orthodox views on this matter are out of line with what the statistics are. That's the opposite of making an ideologically based reductionist claim.

Economically speaking, redlining and an evaporation of low skilled work that blacks relied on due to the industrial restructuring ,and relocation of those jobs from cities to the suburbs (making it difficult for blacks to access) were the type of ' external pressures' that made life even more difficult for black homes in an already existing world of intense discrimination. These casual factors are empirically supported thru many studies.

Judging by Sowell's ready admission that blacks have started the race behind whites for historical and cultural reasons, it seems unlikely to me that he would disregard the effects of historically institutional factors such as the ones you outlined. He in fact says most people don't even realize how much further behind blacks started from other groups. I think his point is more that blacks were making great gains (particularly from the 1920s-1950s) in spite of these institutional factors, but the proliferation of the welfare state stagnated many of these gains. In fact, Sowell's believes that the welfare state could be seen as yet another institutional factor that has hindered black progress. I think the real area of difference between your view and Sowell's view is the analysis of Jim Crow era blacks. Whereas Sowell sees a story of incredible growth and upward mobility in spite of all the institutional factors, you see a story of unmitigated destitution that needed immediate and institutional remedy. From here, it's easy to see how you and Sowell would disagree on the effects of the welfare state. My question to you is this: how do you account for the precipitous decline in black prosperity and economic growth from the 1960s onward? Because Sowell's theory does. Those institutional and discriminatory factors you point to were no less a factor to the Jim Crow era black than the post-Civil Rights era black. So what great change happened in American (specifically black American) society during the 1960s? It wasn't more institutional racism.

Where are the studies that support welfare being a causal factor for black social dislocation? Countries from around the world have far more generous social safety net packages --- whats their relationship with that structure and out of wedlock birth rates? Why just the focus on American blacks? The variables of limited economic enterprise opportunity leading to poor outcomes is the relationship of strength --- you think if black neighborhoods had great schools and great available jobs, that welfare would be a "pressure" on black families? How could it? The theory is borderline preposterous.

I don't think Sowell is necessarily arguing against welfare, but against the welfare state. The theory is that any people who are conditioned to expect state welfare will invariably lose the traits that make it possible to economically and socially prosper in a society such as ours. I don't think that's preposterous at all. It seems to be supported by what we know of social and developmental psychology. He also cross references the black experience with the Jewish, Chinese, Japanese, Irish experience and finds that there was something at play that hindered blacks from prospering at the same rate as certain segments of those communities in modern times; culture. Jews, Chinese, Japanese and Irish all faced institutional discrimination in one form or another, but how these groups and the state responded to it was different from how blacks and the state responded to black discrimination in the 1960s. Sowell finds that the groups that prospered put a cultural emphasis on work, acquisition of skill, saving, and some degree of isolation. Pre-welfare state black communities were practicing the same values, which led to them prospering at similar rates as those groups, but the introduction of the welfare state necessarily removed those traits.

Show me a country with a strong social safety net package especially targeted at a specific group that didn't lead to that group's decline in prosperity. Surely the Jim Crow era black faced at least equal, if not worse, levels of economic enterprise opportunities than the post-welfare state black. So how could that be the relationship of strength when was a standard variable across the timeframe of the change, and how do you account for the decline in prosperity?

Sowell's point is that it's not so much about the resources as the culture and mindset of the people utilizing them. You can have the best schools, but if the students believe they are destined for the dole, they're not going to take advantage of the resources at their disposal.

TLDR: Institutionally discriminatory practices were in more widespread usage during the time of the great rise of black social and economic prosperity (1920s-1950s when the black unemployment rate was lower than the white unemployment rate, and the rate of black married couple families was higher than it is now), which leads us to believe that the cause of this dramatic decline in black prosperity was not the continuation of these policies, but rather the cultural shift within the black community that accompanied the expansion of the disproportionally targeting welfare state. The welfare state being aimed at blacks has removed the cultural values (work, acquisition of skills, saving) that allowed blacks of the early 20th century to prosper at a remarkable rate. This of course does not mean that things were all hunky-dory in that time, and Sowell himself acknowledges the critical gains in institutional rights for blacks resulting from the Civil Rights Movement, but there was an unacknowledged loss in prosperous values within the black community that accompanied the swelling of the welfare state.
 
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valet

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I looked through this thread and Thomas Sowell wasn't called a koon once. :ohhh: Am I on the right board?
 
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