Did Haitians Really Help Free Black Americans?

[IllmaticDelta]

@xoxodede

My views and comments about the mixed race free people and the enslaved Africans in the St. Domingue refugee population that entered Louisiana have been consistent.

From the size of both groups (as documented in census per and post arrival), to the parts of the territory and region the people settled into, to the gender composition of the free group, to their occupation/training, to their cultural impact to the region. All of these things been written about by scholars and historians from the region.

In fact, having read this history, one of my common comments in discussions about people from that region is to speculate about whether they descend from the St. Dominguans. When I do that, without fail, members come out of the woodwork & parachute out of the sky to remind/assure me that the SD impact (genetic) is overstated and that it was mostly AAs there.
When I mention documented examples of SD influence in that region, members come out of the woodwork and parachute down to remind/assure me that SD impact (cultural) is overstated and that it was mostly AAs there.

The topic of Gulf/Louisiana FPOC or Creole slaveowners has come up several times. I've spoken about the SD refugee WHITES, and FPOC who arrived in the country with enslaved Africans, and the ones who went on to own plantations here and purchase human beings.
With @ boy as the exception, at no time has anybody else come out of the woodwork or parachuted down to remind/assure us that the SD impact (FPOC slaveowners)was overstated, and that it was mostly AAs here.

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I never saw the threads you're referring to but as someone who feels the SD influence is way overstated, I've never once attempted to place that the FPOC in New Orleans who owned slaves/servants were mainly from Haiti. I even posted this before about many FPOC in South Carolina doing the same thing

 

[Kooley_High]

I would say people of Haitian descent did help but the vast majority were still AAs. I dont think a large number hatian nationals, if any, were involved in the civil war.

 

[get these nets]

@xoxodede

One of the premier sociologists of the 20th century was the pioneer in the study of Black immigrants in America. Dr. Ira De A Reid, an African American, released his dissertation/book in 1939, it was titled THE NEGRO IMMIGRANT:His Background, Characteristics, and Social Adjustment. 1899-1937

Dr. Ira De Augustine Reid


A year before that, his article Negro Immigration to the United States was published in the sociology journal, Social Forces.

Social Forces
Vol. 16, No. 3 (Mar., 1938), pp. 411-417 (7 pages)

Posting it here. Dr. Reid covers the period mentioned in the book, but he makes mention of figures from earlier periods of emigration. This from 80 years ago, and from roughly 70 years after the Civil War. In that way it's sort of a snapshot of what had happened and prediction of what was to occur. Would like to know your thoughts, and those of whoever reads this post.

 

[xoxodede]

@xoxodede

One of the premier sociologists of the 20th century was the pioneer in the study of Black immigrants in America. Dr. Ira De A Reid, an African American, released his dissertation/book in 1939, it was titled THE NEGRO IMMIGRANT:His Background, Characteristics, and Social Adjustment. 1899-1937

Dr. Ira De Augustine Reid


A year before that, his article Negro Immigration to the United States was published in the sociology journal, Social Forces.

Social Forces
Vol. 16, No. 3 (Mar., 1938), pp. 411-417 (7 pages)

Posting it here. Dr. Reid covers the period mentioned in the book, but he makes mention of figures from earlier periods of emigration. This from 80 years ago, and from roughly 70 years after the Civil War. In that way it's sort of a snapshot of what had happened and prediction of what was to occur. Would like to know your thoughts, and those of whoever reads this post.

Wow. What a find!

This is exactly what happened and what's going on.

In mentioning Howard and the myth of whose "smarter" -- just crazy and sad at the same time.

I didn't know it was that many immigrants who came over -- and him mentioning NY, NJ, Boston, Miami being the hub. It is still like that.

That is why it always blows my mind when people act like most ADOS have been around, know or have relationships with non-ADOS. We usually don't unless we go to an HBCU or a Black immigrant heavy state.

Most ADOS haven't teased, spoken bad upon or even know any Black immigrants to even do so. And we are not taught to look down or hate other Black people or Black ethnicity. Cause, our parents are just like us -- they don't know any other Black folks - other than ADOS.

What did you think?

 

[xoxodede]

I never saw the threads you're referring to but as someone who feels the SD influence is way overstated, I've never once attempted to place that the FPOC in New Orleans who owned slaves/servants were mainly from Haiti. I even posted this before about many FPOC in South Carolina doing the same thing

I have to admit I have done this: I've never once attempted to place that the FPOC in New Orleans who owned slaves/servants were mainly from Haiti.

And it was lack of knowledge about the topic. I know when I first started studying the subject -- I was coming across more than a few who were from Haiti -- and were enslavers. But, I have now come to learn more -- and still learning.

So, I apologize @Get These Nets and any others.

I recently found out my maternal line has DNA from I guess what they call "French Creole." My ancestors must have been either offspring who were sold into enslavement -- or from the White side --- I don't know. I just know I have a good percentage of matches on Ancestry.

Message from Ancestry Cousin:

The names DeCoux and DeCuir are both names of original settlers and slave owners who moved to Pointe Coupee in 1712 -- before the founding of New Orleans. In time, the families kind of merged and now I have as many cousins with the name "DeCuir or DesCuir" as "DeCoux"

Joseph DeCuir (born 1705) had 14 children with a Hyacinth-- a black woman who lived her whole life enslaved-- but all of her children were born free and went on to become FPOC landowners, sugar plantation owners and slave owners.​

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I have to admit I have done this: I've never once attempted to place that the FPOC in New Orleans who owned slaves/servants were mainly from Haiti.

And it was lack of knowledge about the topic. I know when I first started studying the subject -- I was coming across more than a few who were from Haiti -- and were enslavers. But, I have now come to learn more -- and still learning.

So, I apologize @Get These Nets and any others.

I recently found out my maternal line has DNA from I guess what they call "French Creole." My ancestors must have been either offspring who were sold into enslavement -- or from the White side --- I don't know. I just know I have a good percentage of matches on Ancestry.

Message from Ancestry Cousin:

The names DeCoux and DeCuir are both names of original settlers and slave owners who moved to Pointe Coupee in 1712 -- before the founding of New Orleans. In time, the families kind of merged and now I have as many cousins with the name "DeCuir or DesCuir" as "DeCoux"

Joseph DeCuir (born 1705) had 14 children with a Hyacinth-- a black woman who lived her whole life enslaved-- but all of her children were born free and went on to become FPOC landowners, sugar plantation owners and slave owners.​

This is because the mistaken way many people think of the terms FPOC or Creole when it comes to the South or Louisiana:

So what do the actual numbers of black slave owners and their slaves tell us? In 1830, the year most carefully studied by Carter G. Woodson, about 13.7 percent (319,599) of the black population was free. Of these, 3,776 free Negroes owned 12,907 slaves, out of a total of 2,009,043 slaves owned in the entire United States, so the numbers of slaves owned by black people over all was quite small by comparison with the number owned by white people. In his essay, ” ‘The Known World’ of Free Black Slaveholders,” Thomas J. Pressly, using Woodson’s statistics, calculated that 54 (or about 1 percent) of these black slave owners in 1830 owned between 20 and 84 slaves; 172 (about 4 percent) owned between 10 to 19 slaves; and 3,550 (about 94 percent) each owned between 1 and 9 slaves. Crucially, 42 percent owned just one slave.

Pressly also shows that the percentage of free black slave owners as the total number of free black heads of families was quite high in several states, namely 43 percent in South Carolina, 40 percent in Louisiana, 26 percent in Mississippi, 25 percent in Alabama and 20 percent in Georgia. So why did these free black people own these slaves?

Did Black People Own Slaves? | Abbeville Institute

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I looked into some of the richer ones from Louisiana and they had no connection to FPOC from Haiti. For example

Marie Thérèse dite Coincoin[1] (August 1742 – 1816) was notable as a free médecine, planter, slave owner [2] and businesswoman at the colonial Louisiana outpost of Natchitoches (later Natchitoches Parish).

Her freedom was purchased in 1778 by Claude Thomas Pierre Métoyer, with whom she had a long liaison and ten children. She and her descendants established a historical community of Créoles of color along the Cane River, including what is said to be the first church founded by free people of color for their own use, St. Augustine Parish (Isle Brevelle) Church, Natchez, Louisiana. It is included as a site on the Louisiana African American Heritage Trail.

Marie Thérèse Metoyer - Wikipedia

^^her mother below

1718
1718
Birth of Marie Francoise (Slave)
Ewe Nation, Togo, Gold Coast, Dahomey,Africa

Marie Francoise (Slave)

father father below

1715
1715
Birth of Francois (Togo, Africa) (Slave)
Ewe Nation, Togo

Francois (Togo, Africa) (Slave)



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[xoxodede]

This is because the mistaken way many people think of the terms FPOC or Creole when it comes to the South or Louisiana:



Did Black People Own Slaves? | Abbeville Institute

.
.
.
I looked into some of the richer ones from Louisiana and they had no connection to FPOC from Haiti. For example

Marie Thérèse Metoyer - Wikipedia

^^her mother below

1718
1718
Birth of Marie Francoise (Slave)
Ewe Nation, Togo, Gold Coast, Dahomey,Africa

Marie Francoise (Slave)

father father below

1715
1715
Birth of Francois (Togo, Africa) (Slave)
Ewe Nation, Togo

Francois (Togo, Africa) (Slave)



.
.
.

Thanks for this!

What info come from Abbeville Institute? -- it's known as a White Supremacist History/Pro-Confederate site.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Thanks for this!

What info come from Abbeville Institute? -- it's known as a White Supremacist History/Pro-Confederate site.

That site just quoted from here/this article---->Did Black People Own Slaves?

 

[get these nets]

Wow. What a find!

This is exactly what happened and what's going on.

In mentioning Howard and the myth of whose "smarter" -- just crazy and sad at the same time.

I didn't know it was that many immigrants who came over -- and him mentioning NY, NJ, Boston, Miami being the hub. It is still like that.

That is why it always blows my mind when people act like most ADOS have been around, know or have relationships with non-ADOS. We usually don't unless we go to an HBCU or a Black immigrant heavy state.

Most ADOS haven't teased, spoken bad upon or even know any Black immigrants to even do so. And we are not taught to look down or hate other Black people or Black ethnicity. Cause, our parents are just like us -- they don't know any other Black folks - other than ADOS.

What did you think?

Glad that you found the article interesting. I hope to get my hands on Dr. Reid's dissertation/book.

Your point about regions of the country with less historic contact with Black immigrant groups is right. But, I didn't post it as an indictment on any person or group of people ,either from the metro areas mentioned or from elsewhere.
African Americans and people from all the nationalities and ethnic groups that Black immigrants come from have interacted,worked together, and married each other here for centuries, and at least since the period covered in Dr. Reid's book.
But we can't erase or revise history.

For the past 2 years, people have stunted any true dialogue by scapegoating entire Black groups and feeding people a steady supply of revisionist history. I've said all along that people will believe what they want to, but the facts don't support the rhetoric that was being promoted. And that's true in all directions.

The article covers plenty of the modern angles of this discussion. What I made note of was that Dr. Reid highlighted the relative commonalities between AAs and the immigrants from (then) English colonies in the West Indies(who made up considerable % of the Negro immigrants).English Language, English names.. If tensions existed between members of these groups, the issues faced by newcomers in the decades to follow would be greater as people with different languages and "uncommon" names made up a larger % of the Black immigrants. They would stand out more during their waves than the Islanders being discussed from the first 35 years of the 20th century did. The lack of those cultural commonalities would mean that the tensions, confrontations, and misunderstandings would be dialed up even more.
Americans who are from those recent African and Islander groups and waves have written about those experiences. The good and the bad. Artists and entertainers have expressed it through their art, and members here have been candid about it.

The "monkeychaser" slur, and physical confrontations turn up in Reid's research from the 1930s, so people can imagine the things that have happened in the 80+ years since that.

Again, the inter cultural marriages between different Black ethnic groups in the areas covered by Reid are a testament to the hundreds of years of interaction. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a family that is 3 generations deep in one of those cities that isn't connected to a family of a different ethnicity by marriage somehow. But the history is the history.

 

[Dolla$]

Also, my intentions are NOT for a diaspora war in this thread.

Yea ok

 

[96Blue]

Yea ok

Has there been one yet?



I said what I said, yet you and some other poster thinks this.

 

[intruder]

 

[get these nets]

I have to admit I have done this: I've never once attempted to place that the FPOC in New Orleans who owned slaves/servants were mainly from Haiti.

And it was lack of knowledge about the topic. I know when I first started studying the subject -- I was coming across more than a few who were from Haiti -- and were enslavers. But, I have now come to learn more -- and still learning.

So, I apologize @Get These Nets and any others.

I recently found out my maternal line has DNA from I guess what they call "French Creole." My ancestors must have been either offspring who were sold into enslavement -- or from the White side --- I don't know. I just know I have a good percentage of matches on Ancestry.

Message from Ancestry Cousin:

The names DeCoux and DeCuir are both names of original settlers and slave owners who moved to Pointe Coupee in 1712 -- before the founding of New Orleans. In time, the families kind of merged and now I have as many cousins with the name "DeCuir or DesCuir" as "DeCoux"

Joseph DeCuir (born 1705) had 14 children with a Hyacinth-- a black woman who lived her whole life enslaved-- but all of her children were born free and went on to become FPOC landowners, sugar plantation owners and slave owners.​

No need for an apology.
Everybody would like to be defined by the best members of their ethnic group and history, rather than slaveowners. It's all part of our histories, though.
St. Dominguan people owned people before the Haitian Revolution, owned them in Cuba/Jamaica where they fled to during the revolution, and then owned people when they sought refuge in America. It is a fact that mixed race St.Domingue/Haitian people were among the slaveowners.

Something that has thrown me off is also what confuses the discussion about that wave of St. Dominguan refugees. The white St. Dominguans. I've never considered them to be Haitians/St. Dominguans, but technically they are and history notes them as such. So Ava Duvernay technically descends from a Haitian (man born in Haiti) but he was white. The mixed race child of that white man is included as a gens de couleur Libre of Haitian descent. And if he inherited a plantation, would be recorded as an SD/Haitian slaveowner.

I've seen lectures from scholars in Louisiana from the tricentennial projects. They repeated an eye opening quote. They said that either 1 in 6 , or 1 in 8 people living in the state at the last census descend from the St. Domingue refugees who arrived in waves during and after the Haitian Revolution . It only added up when I remembered the whites.

 

[get these nets]

@xoxodede
About the Howard University reference, below is the full article that Dr. Reid cited.

Written by Alfred Edgar Smith, an African American activist, journalist, and government worker. Pictured below with Mary Mcleod Bethune and other members of the Federal Council on Negro Affairs. Howard graduate '28, '32

ALFRED EDGAR SMITH(top right)





West Indian on the Campus
Opportunity
Journal of Negro Life 1933
Volume 11, number 8
pages 238-241

 

[richaveli83]

Those black canadians being talked about in that link were overwhelmingly ADOS; again, this was a matter (in the eyes of white people) of FPOC vs enslaved/recently freed.

obviously whites were going to look down on contraband like

vs the FPOC types like