"Death to the Pessimistic State of Mind" - Nas Voice: NYK '23 Pre-Season Thread

[storyteller]

These Knicks are stupid

Watch as they literally get the worst draft spot possible while missing the playin

My one thought is that maybe a late run pumps the value on players and manifests in a trade for a star. The best-case scenario for them tanking was never better than 7th IMO (maybe 6th). That's range to draft someone really good, but you can still add talent at 10 so if it's 10 and a star or a 6 and this case...I'd probably go 10 and a star. But once they don't get a star player this offseason, it goes back to being a move that didn't help.

 

[aboss4real24]

These Knicks are stupid

Watch as they literally get the worst draft spot possible while missing the playin

Save them for themselves

Can't draft anyway

 

[storyteller]

Johnny Davis is another wing that I really like but can't see being worth drafting into the log jam hell we have. This why I'm praying for a package to bring back one substantial piece. There's enough depth to survive a three or four-piece loss. But yeah, that's a long shot.

 

[RickyGQ]

Johnny Davis is another wing that I really like but can't see being worth drafting into the log jam hell we have. This why I'm praying for a package to bring back one substantial piece. There's enough depth to survive a three or four-piece loss. But yeah, that's a long shot.

This off-season is gonna be nerve racking. Cause I’m scared to death they run it back. Like, we should definitely trade Rose over the summer for IQ and a young starting pg. but no way Thibs oks that. Keeping rose means IQ is at best out backup pg because we already have a backup 2 in Grimes who’s going to need minutes which means we’re not signing or drafting a pg. Same with Burks and Noel

 

[Wargames]

My one thought is that maybe a late run pumps the value on players and manifests in a trade for a star. The best-case scenario for them tanking was never better than 7th IMO (maybe 6th). That's range to draft someone really good, but you can still add talent at 10 so if it's 10 and a star or a 6 and this case...I'd probably go 10 and a star. But once they don't get a star player this offseason, it goes back to being a move that didn't help.

They are not trading the vets for a star and the Knicks are in literally in the worst spot this year in the whole league. Think about that. They could not pick a more bad place to be if they tried.

12 games left and they are 5 games out of the playin (behind teams just as good or better) and the West division the teams in the playin NO and LA (whose pick goes to the Griz a better team than the Knicks) will likely draft before the Knicks.


This is the ultimate treadmill scenario


I would legit leave this fan base over this stupidness but I just hate the other teams more.

Even if they make a playin they are not a good team and have significant injuries. Do ya’ll remember my Thibs rant when he was hired. This is almost word for word why I was like don’t hire Thibs. Now they are acting all high and mighty because they are being him back.

 

[storyteller]

They are not trading the vets for a star and the Knicks are in literally in the worst spot this year in the whole league. Think about that. They could not pick a more bad place to be if they tried.

12 games left and they are 5 games out of the playin (behind teams just as good or better) and the West division the teams in the playin NO and LA (whose pick goes to the Griz a better team than the Knicks) will likely draft before the Knicks.


This is the ultimate treadmill scenario


I would legit leave this fan base over this stupidness but I just hate the other teams more.

Even if they make a playin they are not a good team and have significant injuries. Do ya’ll remember my Thibs rant when he was hired. This is almost word for word why I was like don’t hire Thibs. Now they are acting all high and mighty because they are being him back.

I'm not talking about just trading the vets. A top-ten range pick (plus future pick or picks), one or two promising young players, and vets to match becomes feasible if they end this season strong and multiple stars start moving around. Not saying it's guaranteed at all, but it becomes a realistic possibility. That's the value of having all these log jams...suddenly you can dump off a bunch of pieces and still have a functional team for what you bring back.

This definitely isn't a worse situation than a bunch of teams including squads below the Knicks. I don't think it can be understated how RJ's growth and performance at age 21 changes the outlook for this team quite a bit. The worst-case scenario is they're stuck with what they have for one more year when a bunch of contracts can be opted out of for cap space before they go over the cap to keep RJ (and possibly/probably Cam).

So just to stress this, the treadmill scenario is only locked up for one more year and requires no motion or trades this offseason. I think that's highly unlikely.

 

[storyteller]

This off-season is gonna be nerve racking. Cause I’m scared to death they run it back. Like, we should definitely trade Rose over the summer for IQ and a young starting pg. but no way Thibs oks that. Keeping rose means IQ is at best out backup pg because we already have a backup 2 in Grimes who’s going to need minutes which means we’re not signing or drafting a pg. Same with Burks and Noel

I'm REALLY curious if LA would be interested in Rose. He'd be a great help for that team, they're win-now, and I think he might embrace a chance to rock with Bron and Davis.

 

[RickyGQ]

I'm REALLY curious if LA would be interested in Rose. He'd be a great help for that team, they're win-now, and I think he might embrace a chance to rock with Bron and Davis.

I’d want him back in Chicago. He can give them the push they need next season to be a real contender. Plus we probably can get a pick back from Chicago.

 

[Wargames]

I'm not talking about just trading the vets. A top-ten range pick (plus future pick or picks), one or two promising young players, and vets to match becomes feasible if they end this season strong and multiple stars start moving around. Not saying it's guaranteed at all, but it becomes a realistic possibility. That's the value of having all these log jams...suddenly you can dump off a bunch of pieces and still have a functional team for what you bring back.

This definitely isn't a worse situation than a bunch of teams including squads below the Knicks. I don't think it can be understated how RJ's growth and performance at age 21 changes the outlook for this team quite a bit. The worst-case scenario is they're stuck with what they have for one more year when a bunch of contracts can be opted out of for cap space before they go over the cap to keep RJ (and possibly/probably Cam).

So just to stress this, the treadmill scenario is only locked up for one more year and requires no motion or trades this offseason. I think that's highly unlikely.

I don’t have hope they can pull off that level of trade. Only a few weeks ago they tried to move both Burks, Noel, and Cam for two first and the Lakers were like no to adding their pick to the Raptors picks to get the trade done. The value of these vets being expiring contracts wont kick in until next year’s trade deadline. That unfortunately doesn’t mean much either because of cap holds. They needed to move them now.

Also RJ and Cams cap hold come to $40+ Million. I did the math two weeks ago and basically if they let Mitch walk (and don’t replace him with a MLE level center), move the 2023 expiring vets and Fournier, odds are they will only have 18-22 million to spend in 2023. Basically they can spend the same money off of MLE’s as they can moving the whole roster they just can’t give it to one player. Now with Thibs coming back who really thinks they are letting Taj and Derrick go. So money in 2023 is very unlikely.

The FO already fukked up the next few offseason last year giving out bad mini contracts and that Fournier and Randle contracts that coincide with RJ’s (and now Cam’s) cap hold. It wasn’t their fault fully because they believed the Thibs effect was “real”, but this is stupid. They are so hard up for a PG they shouldn’t draft BPA which is always a risky situation and are winning games against scrubs who are hiding their better players (Simmons, Dame, and Beal) because they realize they need to get them help.

The front office is a Mess. Too many half measures and half ideas. They couldn’t even get their shyt together to fire a coach that’s been fukking up all season. They couldn’t get their shyt together to trade Mitch who just from how he is being played is likely gone. They can’t get their shyt together to just say fukk this season and try to get another good rookie.

It’s a definition of death by committee where no one wants to take the blame and the owner doesn’t care as long as it’s not embarrassing (yet). The Knicks have been bad, dysfunctional, and embarrassing. Now it’s a mess… and Thibs still sucks.

 

[Knicksman20]

But why?

That's not development, that's maintaining the skills he already has. We want Obi to be better than the player we drafted. Imagine we told RJ we only want him to do what he's good at. Again, we SHOULD be running more pick and rolls for Obi... But I get why we don't. He works best with Rose and he's out


I feel like he was picked as a combination of Randle replacement and BPA. I don't think we need to run more sets for him to say we shouldn't have picked him... That's apparent regardless unless we trade Julius

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see Obi being successful in the NBA the same way he was successful in college. He's not gonna be as successful posting up smaller players because the NBA is bigger... He showed us last year he's not that strong. The transition game is already apparent. I agree with you but his value is going to skyrocket if he gets confident in shooting the 3 because as you admitted, it's going to open up his game... Especially when he starts cutting because teams are respecting his shot


As I recall, Thibs made every change we asked of him in the playoffs but none of it mattered because Julius sucked ass and the Hawks hid Trae on Reggie Bullock.

Everything else you're saying could be true but it's based on hypotheticals. I could just as easily argue that nothing would be different using facts. Quickley hit a slump, Reddish was a consistent negative in +/- , Obi was ass all year, Mitch needed most of the season to get back his conditioning, McBride hasn't dropped any super impressive stats outside of the g league.

I don't believe half of that, just saying that while you could be right you could also be wrong. So you're right, we'll never know because of how Thibs runs things, but if you're wrong then what do we do? Rehire the man?

We agree more than you think, I just don't think the solution to everything is to fire the coach. I think he likes our kids... His definition of development is just not what most of us want. I'm personally fine with it. I just hope Quentin can thoroughly outplay Fournier so I can see if Thibs is willing to start him

We keep going in circles because of your tunnel vision in regards to what's actually going on lol. The last thing I'll say to you on this is yes we're dealing with hypotheticals because your boy Thibs refused to play the rookies early in the season where they could've made a difference. The FACT is Thibs coaching has run the vets into the ground that by the time the 4th hit, they had nothing left; while the rookies were rotting on the bench. That's a horrible approach to the game that didn't work in Minny, & sure as hell didn't work here. It's not till after the All Star break is when Thibs eased up a little & I'm sure the FO was in his ear & it probably wasn't voluntary. I'm literally done going back & forth with you because it's futile lol

 

[JMurder]

We keep going in circles because of your tunnel vision in regards to what's actually going on lol. The last thing I'll say to you on this is yes we're dealing with hypotheticals because your boy Thibs refused to play the rookies early in the season where they could've made a difference. The FACT is Thibs coaching has run the vets into the ground that by the time the 4th hit, they had nothing left; while the rookies were rotting on the bench. That's a horrible approach to the game that didn't work in Minny, & sure as hell didn't work here. It's not till after the All Star break is when Thibs eased up a little & I'm sure the FO was in his ear & it probably wasn't voluntary. I'm literally done going back & forth with you because it's futile lol

We're not going in circles. I've admitted and agreed with the majority of this. I'm not trying to change your mind about any of this lol

I'm just pointing out words like "hypothetical" "could've" and "probably." To me, all of the REALLY good young guys either were already getting big minutes, or played their way into a rotation spot. I acknowledge things "could" be better, but I'm not comfortable throwing away a coach who brought us to the playoffs because of "could." If you are, kudos...

 

[Knicksman20]

We're not going in circles. I've admitted and agreed with the majority of this. I'm not trying to change your mind about any of this lol

I'm just pointing out words like "hypothetical" "could've" and "probably." To me, all of the REALLY good young guys either were already getting big minutes, or played their way into a rotation spot. I acknowledge things "could" be better, but I'm not comfortable throwing away a coach who brought us to the playoffs because of "could." If you are, kudos...

I just don't think Thibs is the right guy for the job for the myriad of reasons we've all said. He should be fired to me but only when we have a viable option for the head coaching position; otherwise we're stuck with him. I really believe we got the most we're ever gonna get from him

 

[23Barrettcity]

I don’t have hope they can pull off that level of trade. Only a few weeks ago they tried to move both Burks, Noel, and Cam for two first and the Lakers were like no to adding their pick to the Raptors picks to get the trade done. The value of these vets being expiring contracts wont kick in until next year’s trade deadline. That unfortunately doesn’t mean much either because of cap holds. They needed to move them now.

Also RJ and Cams cap hold come to $40+ Million. I did the math two weeks ago and basically if they let Mitch walk (and don’t replace him with a MLE level center), move the 2023 expiring vets and Fournier, odds are they will only have 18-22 million to spend in 2023. Basically they can spend the same money off of MLE’s as they can moving the whole roster they just can’t give it to one player. Now with Thibs coming back who really thinks they are letting Taj and Derrick go. So money in 2023 is very unlikely.

The FO already fukked up the next few offseason last year giving out bad mini contracts and that Fournier and Randle contracts that coincide with RJ’s (and now Cam’s) cap hold. It wasn’t their fault fully because they believed the Thibs effect was “real”, but this is stupid. They are so hard up for a PG they shouldn’t draft BPA which is always a risky situation and are winning games against scrubs who are hiding their better players (Simmons, Dame, and Beal) because they realize they need to get them help.

The front office is a Mess. Too many half measures and half ideas. They couldn’t even get their shyt together to fire a coach that’s been fukking up all season. They couldn’t get their shyt together to trade Mitch who just from how he is being played is likely gone. They can’t get their shyt together to just say fukk this season and try to get another good rookie.

It’s a definition of death by committee where no one wants to take the blame and the owner doesn’t care as long as it’s not embarrassing (yet). The Knicks have been bad, dysfunctional, and embarrassing. Now it’s a mess… and Thibs still sucks.

I am fine with thibs being gone and the FO got too cute this season. However
Breh you kind of delusional the team lost many games , they had a bad road trip and your acting like they are doing something special. They pretty much waved the flag by playing the young guys more . Do you want them to throw games ?? Also this draft isn’t even that great and we were never getting a top 5 pick .? You need to accept that to fix this team we need to trade some of our vets ( who need to build up their trade value ) and try to get a actual veteran Pg who can make up for thibs offensive short comings

 

[storyteller]

I don’t have hope they can pull off that level of trade. Only a few weeks ago they tried to move both Burks, Noel, and Cam for two first and the Lakers were like no to adding their pick to the Raptors picks to get the trade done. The value of these vets being expiring contracts wont kick in until next year’s trade deadline. That unfortunately doesn’t mean much either because of cap holds. They needed to move them now.

Also RJ and Cams cap hold come to $40+ Million. I did the math two weeks ago and basically if they let Mitch walk (and don’t replace him with a MLE level center), move the 2023 expiring vets and Fournier, odds are they will only have 18-22 million to spend in 2023. Basically they can spend the same money off of MLE’s as they can moving the whole roster they just can’t give it to one player. Now with Thibs coming back who really thinks they are letting Taj and Derrick go. So money in 2023 is very unlikely.

The FO already fukked up the next few offseason last year giving out bad mini contracts and that Fournier and Randle contracts that coincide with RJ’s (and now Cam’s) cap hold. It wasn’t their fault fully because they believed the Thibs effect was “real”, but this is stupid. They are so hard up for a PG they shouldn’t draft BPA which is always a risky situation and are winning games against scrubs who are hiding their better players (Simmons, Dame, and Beal) because they realize they need to get them help.

The front office is a Mess. Too many half measures and half ideas. They couldn’t even get their shyt together to fire a coach that’s been fukking up all season. They couldn’t get their shyt together to trade Mitch who just from how he is being played is likely gone. They can’t get their shyt together to just say fukk this season and try to get another good rookie.

It’s a definition of death by committee where no one wants to take the blame and the owner doesn’t care as long as it’s not embarrassing (yet). The Knicks have been bad, dysfunctional, and embarrassing. Now it’s a mess… and Thibs still sucks.

It's good to assume the worst, but this is hyperbole. The worst-case scenario isn't them locked into these deals, it's having to attach lesser assets to move the expirings for whatever move they're gunning for. But they've built up a horde of second-rounders and have a shytload of young players. If they need to make space, they can. Same with calculating Cam's caphold. They can easily move him if the cap hold is an obstacle to another move.

Rose and Burks definitely seem moveable, possibly even for a return. The Burks rumors are that they couldn't get teams to eat second contracts with his deal, not that he was unmovable. Noel could be a headache, but it's a 9 million dollar expiring which isn't exactly an albatross contract. Fournier might get tricky to move, but I'm not even convinced they need to dump him. He's shooting 42% from three on more than 8 attempts per game since January and his contract is essentially another expiring after next season.

These aren't contracts that leave your roster in shambles or even cost much to come off of. The FO has been good on all draft picks sans Obi and their trades have been pretty solid too (literally turned two picks into better picks without losing anything and turned DSJ and a second into Rose). If they lose Mitch for nothing, that's a massive blemish. But otherwise, this isn't some dumpster fire with no chance to escape ineptitude for the foreseeable future. They've got as many good choices as bad, which marks them as mediocre but also leaves plenty of room for take positive steps.

 

[JMurder]

I need y'all help. Anybody got the meme where Fizdale is smiling during a blowout deficit and Thibs is yelling during a blowout lead