"'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat"-Windows Central

[Gizmo_Duck]

Without even talking about any other games and genres.

Final Fantasy sales and success has gone down the further they’ve moved from the formula that got them there.

All around media we are seeing nostalgia or “throw back” content having great success.

A Final Fantasy game true to FF roots could and i think would be very successful.

Claire Obscure is proof it could work and people would be into it. Not sure why you wanna fight for square to keep doing shyt thats shrinking the franchise

Stop talking to me

 

[hex]

I thought BG 3 was real time? I never played it

But i agree, there's a market for turn base and fukk boomers who sau they don't want it

Gamers will eat shyt if its sold to them for a high price

Nah "BG3" is straight turn based and about as old school you can get in terms of story, character development, choices matter, etc.

Fred.

 

[Gizmo_Duck]

They are all the same for the purposes of this discussion.

The article in the OP is comparing "FF" and "Expedition 33". The only thing separating a JRPG from a Larian game or "Expedition 33" is a JRPG is made in Japan. That's it. And the term CRPG is completely meaningless as those games now appear on consoles.

It's 2025, nobody gives a f*ck about separating the sub-sub genres of RPGs.

Clair Obscur is closer to a JRPG than it is a Larian game. Thats proving my point.

the genre Clair Obscur is in has a far lower ceiling than the genre FF is currently in. Doing 3 million lifetime in sales for Clair Obscur is over-exceeding, just like it was for metaphor and Persona.

FF is no longer in that bracket of games. They make AAA RPG’s (and they’re probably the only japanese developer left thats doing it) which means they have way higher sales expectations.

mind you, im not saying that can’t be successful making a turn based AAA Final Fantasy game, but to act like SE needs to learn from companies selling half the amount of games as them doesn’t make sense

 

[hex]

Clair Obscur is closer to a JRPG than it is a Larian game. Thats proving my point.

the genre Clair Obscur is in has a far lower ceiling than the genre FF is currently in. Doing 3 million lifetime in sales for Clair Obscur is over-exceeding, just like it was for metaphor and Persona.

FF is no longer in that bracket of games. They make AAA RPG’s which means they have way higher sales expectations.

You're getting bogged down in the minutiae of CRPG vs RPG vs JRPG when the discussion in the OP is about turn based combat. Which is found in all three sub-genres. "Expedition 33" is closer to "BG3" than a modern "FF" title because both are turn based. "FF" now is closer to something like "God Of War" than a JRPG.

That's all people are saying.

And I don't understand the sales argument at all. "FF" has been under performing for years. You're acting like they're consistently selling 15-20 mill on the path they chose. They're close to the same ceiling "Expedition 33" is under, just not by choice.

Fred.

 

[Gizmo_Duck]

And I don't understand the sales argument at all. "FF" has been under performing for years. You're acting like they're consistently selling 15-20 mill on the path they chose. They're close to the same ceiling "Expedition 33" is under, just not by choice.

You think they aren’t selling as well as they want because they aren’t turn based? outside of BG3 can you point me to other turn based rpgs that are selling 10m+ copies?

Even when Final Fantasy was turn based they weren’t selling 10 million+ copies outside of FF7 (which took 20 years to do so) and FFX.

 

[hex]

You think they aren’t selling as well as they want because they aren’t turn based? outside of BG3 can you point me to other turn based rpgs that are selling 10m+ copies?

"FF" isn't selling 10 mill lately so why is that the gold standard?

Larian's last game "Divinity: Original Sin 2" sold 7+ mill. Which is more than/comparable to recent "FF" games.

I'm not saying "FF" isn't selling because it's not turn based. I'm saying they started off turn based, they aren't doing as well on their current path, turn based RPGs actually had a resurgence....maybe try making a turn based mainline "FF" game?

What do they have to lose? Their numbers for the franchise aren't hitting as is. They could've tested the waters with the "FF7" remake but they dropped the ball.

Fred.

 

[Gizmo_Duck]

I'm not saying "FF" isn't selling because it's not turn based. I'm saying they started off turn based, they aren't doing as well on their current path, turn based RPGs actually had a resurgence....maybe try making a turn based mainline "FF" game

Square Enix is partly responsible for the resurgence, they still release turn based games, more than any other publisher. Dragonquest is one of the biggest RPG series out.

but the resurgence you are talking about isn’t pushing more copies than what SE is currently doing with FF.

it’d make more logical sense to say, ‘Elden Ring sold 30 million copies in 3 years, SE should make their next game have combat like that and be open world”

rather than pointing to games selling less than the last two Final Fantasy games..yall keep talking like Rebirth and XVI bombed, underperforming for the amount of investment isn’t the same thing. They have a way bigger number it’s not hitting, but i bet if XVI sold like Metaphor, things would be a lot more dire for SE than it currently is

 

[Hopeofmypeople]

Square said a turn based game like Claire Obscure couldn’t work.

Claire Obscure worked.

Imagine if square made real FF game

To be fair it isn’t your typical turn based, there is a broader level of engagement involved than your typical turn based. Not to mention its success is a combination of multiple things.

 

[hex]

Square Enix is partly responsible for the resurgence, they still release turn based games, more than any other publisher. Dragonquest is one of the biggest RPG series out.

but the resurgence you are talking about isn’t pushing more copies than what SE is currently doing with FF.

it’d make more logical sense to say, ‘Elden Ring sold 30 million copies in 3 years, SE should make their next game have combat like that and be open world”

rather than pointing to games selling less than the last two Final Fantasy games..yall keep talking like Rebirth and XVI bombed, underperforming for the amount of investment isn’t the same thing. They have a way bigger number it’s not hitting, but i bet if XVI sold like Metaphor, things would be a lot more dire for SE than it currently is

"Dragon Quest" is the JRPG equivalent of "GTA" or "COD". They were gonna sell off brand recognition alone and none of the RPGs I mentioned were affected by it.

The "Elden Ring" comparison makes no sense because we're saying "FF" should go back to what it started as. Not jump genres entirely.

And ironically "FF" has had more in common with open world games, than actual RPGs, for a while now. But that's another discussion.

Fred.

 

[PS5 Pro]

Square Enix is partly responsible for the resurgence, they still release turn based games, more than any other publisher. Dragonquest is one of the biggest RPG series out.

but the resurgence you are talking about isn’t pushing more copies than what SE is currently doing with FF.

it’d make more logical sense to say, ‘Elden Ring sold 30 million copies in 3 years, SE should make their next game have combat like that and be open world”

rather than pointing to games selling less than the last two Final Fantasy games..yall keep talking like Rebirth and XVI bombed, underperforming for the amount of investment isn’t the same thing. They have a way bigger number it’s not hitting, but i bet if XVI sold like Metaphor, things would be a lot more dire for SE than it currently is

Lets keep it stacks tho... I don' t care what somebody said. Nobody gives a fukk or a shyt about Dragon quest.
I being a super gamer tried everything, and even as a kid I didn't think Dragon Quest was special.
As we discuss games, nobody mentions it but its special in those niche circles and they big up it to keep it alive

I agree with those that say they need to make a turn based FF mainline title.
I grew up on FF1/2/3 NES/SNES. I hated that they left turn based combat behind and abandoned the series because of it
Come back home Final Fantasy... I'm trying to ride in an airship

 

[Gizmo_Duck]

The "Elden Ring" comparison makes no sense because we're saying "FF" should go back to what it started as. Not jump genres entirely.

Square Enix has never made a game like Baldur’s Gate 3 though. Thats not what FF started as, and thats the only example of an rpg series that is greatly outselling modern day Final Fantasy

oh and Cyberpunk and Witcher 3

 

[Styles]

Square is on the right track with Remake/Rebirth and it’s command based combat. DQ is their full turn based combat game now. Not sure why this topic keeps coming up.


The much much bigger issue with SE is their writing. Once they drop a 10/10 story, the sales will follow. They used to be the gold standard for video game stories. Their audience is in their 30s now and they need to accept that, and stop trying to write edgy teen stories. Even 16 felt lackluster story wise.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

Square enix puts out the most turn based games of any other publisher, people don’t buy them (aside from dragon quest)

Final Fantasy has always been about experimentation and trying to push the medium further. Rebirth has one of the most inventive combat systems out of any modern game, XVI less so.

also, while Claire Obscur is the clear GOTY front runner right now, both the last final fantasy games sold 3x’s as much as it did in the first couple of days. SE isn’t in competition with them they are in competition with other major AAA devs, Sony, Bethesda, CDPR, Capcom, etc.

Clair Obscur has been a persona/xeno/yakuza level success which is great but the internet using it to shyt on Square is retarded especially the obvious warring windows central article that has their line in the sand because of its gamepass association

Ding ding ding.

Turn based was a means to an end for Square back in the day. The moment they figured out how to NOT be turn based they stopped. There hasn't been a turn based FF since 13. Over 15 years ago. Hell, even 12 was ATB. Being turn based was a product of what RPGs were based off of (DnD), and when they realized they didn't need to do that anymore they stopped.

XV just feels like a tech demo for the 7R series. But XVI was a full departure and they were VERY up front about it. That it was a character driven action game.

FF is always about story, music, new mechanics and pushing graphical boundaries. Period. Every Gen there's at least 1 or 2 FF games that are some of the best looking that the console can offer. That's their MO.

Now Clair Obscur is getting rave reviews because it isn't just turn based, it expands on its battle system in fun ways. I was think about it. The battle system in Clair Obscur woulda been call convoluted if it came out even pre-pandemic. But because the market is so starved for a good turn based game (that's AAA or close to it) it's winning.

 

[Gizmo_Duck]

Ding ding ding.

Turn based was a means to an end for Square back in the day. The moment they figured out how to NOT be turn based they stopped. There hasn't been a turn based FF since 13. Over 15 years ago. Hell, even 12 was ATB. Being turn based was a product of what RPGs were based off of (DnD), and when they realized they didn't need to do that anymore they stopped.

XV just feels like a tech demo for the 7R series. But XVI was a full departure and they were VERY up front about it. That it was a character driven action game.

FF is always about story, music, new mechanics and pushing graphical boundaries. Period. Every Gen there's at least 1 or 2 FF games that are some of the best looking that the console can offer. That's their MO.

Now Clair Obscur is getting rave reviews because it isn't just turn based, it expands on its battle system in fun ways. I was think about it. The battle system in Clair Obscur woulda been call convoluted if it came out even pre-pandemic. But because the market is so starved for a good turn based game (that's AAA or close to it) it's winning.

I barely even consider Clair Obscur a turn based game in any traditional sense, it’s pretty much an action game. It has more focusing on dodging and parrying than actual action games do

 

[Half A $]

You would think this Clair game sold 20m the way people are acting