"'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat"-Windows Central

Fatboi1

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"You think you want it, but you don't."


This is a comment from former Blizzard president J. Allen Brack, responding to players asking for a World of Warcraft "Classic" mode. It has since become quite notorious among World of Warcraft fans, not only for its pretty arrogant and callous dismissal of an entire section of the fanbase, but also, because Blizzard eventually capitulated and gave players what they had been asking for.

Now under new leadership, World of Warcraft has changed its philosophy to: giving fans exactly what they want. A shocking revelation, I know. But the game has never been in a better spot, with a variety of modes for different types of players, killing off its previous "one shoe fits all" dispassionate telemetry-first design philosophy. We're even getting player housing.

It's perhaps ironic, then, that the main reason we're getting Player Housing in World of Warcraft is due to competition from a competing MMO: Final Fantasy 14.

World of Warcraft was forced to throw their playbook out of the window to meet fans where they were, rather than what the "data" was telling them. Activision's telemetry must have told them that "nobody wanted" player housing, but the popularity of the feature in Final Fantasy 14 certainly suggested otherwise. FF14 innovated where World of Warcraft had failed, and won itself a large and thriving fanbase of its own on the back of that innovation.

For whatever reason, Square Enix began ignoring its own successes when it comes to the mainline Final Fantasy games, which, in recent years, have been on a steady decline in popularity and relevance.

Square Enix's most recent Final Fantasy projects, namely 15, 16, 7 Remake and 7 Rebirth have found decent success, but I would argue none of them received the fanfare some of their predecessors enjoyed. The Final Fantasy 7 remakes has proven that there's still magic to be found in the franchise — even if they flooded Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth with dull Ubisoft-inspired open world drudgery.

Where there's been less success is in the truly new Final Fantasy games. 15 and 16 are both neither what I would describe as classic entries in the series, and represent something of a low point. Square Enix fully abandoned what made the series great, opting away from what fans want in favor of chasing other popular games in a desperate, mis-guided attempt to get more money.

It's utterly insane to me that Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth features Ubisoft-style towers to unlock additional content in the open world. It speaks of a complete dereliction of gauging what is actually fun, and smacks of the type of design decision led by Microsoft Excel rather than good sense.

A little game from France called Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has shone a spotlight on Square Enix's design decisions around Final Fantasy — which was famously a variety of turn-based, command-based, and active-turn-based over the years, with tactical gameplay at its core. Expedition 33 borrows from classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy 8 and even the Super Mario RPG, atop some AAA production values, photorealism, wrapped in a dark fairy tale plot.

Square Enix has previously claimed that people don't want turn-based games anymore. Clearly, with Expedition 33 selling a million copies already — not including Xbox Game Pass — that simply isn't true. This isn't an established franchise like Dragon Quest or Persona, either.

Is Square Enix simply out of touch now? There's nowhere that drives that possibility home more strongly, for me, than Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida's own words.

Square Enix: it's time to stop the gaslighting over turn-based tactical combat​

Expedition 33



Naoki Yoshida is credited with the revival of the MMORPG, Final Fantasy 14, which found success by chasing World of Warcraft's model more closely, albeit with that classic and cozy Final Fantasy veneer. While I would say drawing upon inspiration from World of Warcraft did work incredibly well for Final Fantasy 14, this new approach clearly harmed the production of Final Fantasy 15, 7 Rebirth, and 16.

Final Fantasy 16 in particular dropped all pretence that Square Enix wanted to honor the legacy and passion of decades of Final Fantasy precedent, ditching all command-based, tactical gameplay in favor of a derivative and half-baked "Devil May Cry" hack n' slashery. But why? Yoshida gave his "reasons" in a previous interview.

"One thing that we found recently is that as graphics get better and better, and as characters become more realistic and more photo-real, is that the combination of that realism with the very unreal sense of turn-based commands doesn't really fit together."

Stylized turn-based games like Persona, Octopath Traveller, and Dragon Quest are okay, but not photorealistic ones? Huh? What?

In my view, this is the damning quote that proves to me that Naoki Yoshida and the team leading Final Fantasy have utterly fallen out of touch, not only with Final Fantasy fans, but the wider audience in general.

"Some people are fine with it. They're fine with having these realistic characters in this unreal type of system. But then on the other hand, there are people that just can't get over it. I mean, if you have a character holding a gun, why can't you just press the button to have the gunfire – why do you need a command in there?"

A little game from France, Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, solved this made up "problem" by letting you free-aim with the character's guns. It's almost as if Square Enix is trying to explain away the lack of creativity.



Seriously though; the whole argument falls apart entirely when you consider that video games aren't meant to be realistic from the ground up. Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?

It's not the first, or last time, we've seen the industry try to downplay turn based games, and it's not the first, or last time, games like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 or Baldur's Gate 3 will show up to prove everyone wrong.

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has a core team of just 33 people, built in part by Ubisoft veterans who were finally free of "telemetry"-based corpo-style game development — which has led the industry down this cul-de-sac of anti-creativity. It's potentially the highest user-rated game on Metacritic in history, as fans pour in not only to praise the game, but also to send Square Enix a strong message: stop gaslighting us.


 

CarltonJunior

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FF7 Rebirth did a great job in the combat category. Yes, they could've done like Clair Obscur and have parry/dodging mechanics with a turn-based system, but FF7 Rebirth was fine. Don't think it would've changed the gaming experience for the better.
The newest FF7 has a lot of problems, but it wasnt the combat, ill agree.

But that doesnt dismiss the rest of the article either.

The problem is that stylistically, turn based combat will always be unpopular and not preferred to the mainstream, attention span isnt there. Clair Obscur is enjoying its 15 minutes but ultimately people default to action based gameplay, square recognizes this.

The bigger issue in my opinion is that Square’s gotten too big for their britches, FF is natively a niche product and series, they got lucky with the OG FF7 and advent children taking off, but their philosophy changes to accomodate and make FF accessible to the mainstream has largely just pissed off the core fanbase and hasnt really worked on the casual fanbase outside of FF14. They should realize this and appeal to the core fanbase again, IMO.
 

Fatboi1

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FF7 Rebirth did a great job in the combat category. Yes, they could've done like Clair Obscur and have parry/dodging mechanics with a turn-based system, but FF7 Rebirth was fine. Don't think it would've changed the gaming experience for the better.
Rebirth imo was excellent. I'm more so talking about 16 and to an extent 15. 16 just felt like a blatant action game that forgot it was an JRPG.
 

hex

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The problem is that stylistically, turn based combat will always be unpopular and not preferred to the mainstream, attention span isnt there. Clair Obscur is enjoying its 15 minutes but ultimately people default to action based gameplay, square recognizes this.

Now following the logic here as "Baldur's Gate 3" was an old school turn based CRPG and it outsold the last several "Final Fantasy" games and killed pretty much everything during awards season.

Fred.
 

CarltonJunior

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Now following the logic here as "Baldur's Gate 3" was an old school turn based CRPG and it outsold the last several "Final Fantasy" games and killed pretty much everything during awards season.

Fred.
Read the rest

The bigger issue in my opinion is that Square’s gotten too big for their britches, FF is natively a niche product and series, they got lucky with the OG FF7 and advent children taking off, but their philosophy changes to accomodate and make FF accessible to the mainstream has largely just pissed off the core fanbase and hasnt really worked on the casual fanbase outside of FF14. They should realize this and appeal to the core fanbase again, IMO.


Were agreeing with each other
 

CarltonJunior

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None of these games need to be a referendum on one another. Clair Obscur's success isn't only because they refined turn based combat. Turn based combat is still niche and for every Persona and Clair Obscur there's a whole host of games that don't sell well and aren't as highly rated.
Correct as well.

Square knows this and is trying to conform, however they should stop conforming IMO.

They originally had a good plan with FF13 and versus 13, they were going to have a mainline FF with turn based combat, and a FF with action based combat, and that idea instead got perverted and adopted by 15. If that went through maybe Square wouldve seen the light sooner.
 

Legal

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Jumping out the window to say this is proof Square Enix is wrong before we see reports that the game actually met or exceeded sales/revenue goals is crazy, IMO.
 

Microfracture

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Correct as well.

Square knows this and is trying to conform, however they should stop conforming IMO.

They originally had a good plan with FF13 and versus 13, they were going to have a mainline FF with turn based combat, and a FF with action based combat, and that idea instead got perverted and adopted by 15. If that went through maybe Square wouldve seen the light sooner.

I might be a little biased against this article because I loved Rebirth (especially the combat) and really enjoyed FF16. So I don't feel like Square is fukking up. The article just makes it seem like they have to go back to turn based combat because Clair Obscur is a hit
 

Gizmo_Duck

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Square enix puts out the most turn based games of any other publisher, people don’t buy them (aside from dragon quest)

Final Fantasy has always been about experimentation and trying to push the medium further. Rebirth has one of the most inventive combat systems out of any modern game, XVI less so.

also, while Claire Obscur is the clear GOTY front runner right now, both the last final fantasy games sold 3x’s as much as it did in the first couple of days. SE isn’t in competition with them they are in competition with other major AAA devs, Sony, Bethesda, CDPR, Capcom, etc.

Clair Obscur has been a persona/xeno/yakuza level success which is great but the internet using it to shyt on Square is retarded especially the obvious warring windows central article that has their line in the sand because of its gamepass association
 

Rekkapryde

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Square enix puts out the most turn based games of any other publisher, people don’t buy them (aside from dragon quest)

Final Fantasy has always been about experimentation and trying to push the medium further. Rebirth has one of the most inventive combat systems out of any modern game, XVI less so.

also, while Claire Obscur is the clear GOTY front runner right now, both the last final fantasy games sold 3x’s as much as it did in the first couple of days. SE isn’t in competition with them they are in competition with other major AAA devs, Sony, Bethesda, CDPR, Capcom, etc.

Clair Obscur has been a persona/xeno/yakuza level success which is great but the internet using it to shyt on Square is retarded especially the obvious warring windows central article that has their line in the sand because of its gamepass association

aka Agendas.
 
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