@SwagKingKong stop posting.
Can The Coli Finally CELEBRATE the Brilliance and Greateness of Kevin Garnett
- Thread starter Walt
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SwagKingKong
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Bird's prime shyts all over KG's and its not even close. Magic is even better than that.
Bird dropping 30 PPG on 52% shooting and you acting like his peak isn't Garnett tier?
Yeah, if we compare their best 5 seasons or even best seven seasons, I'd give the edge to Bird due to those years. But anything over than that, it's starts favoring Garnett because he has more years being elite than Bird, especially defensively which he has a clear edge over Bird for his full career.
In reality, Bird started decline in 1989 when he was out for the season and came back in 1990 and was bothered by his back for the rest of his career. He wasn't the same player, not even close to it and although his raw numbers still looks great, he wasn't as impactful as before. He was less efficient offensively, more turnover prone, wasn't as durable and all his advanced stats looks much worse from 1989 until his retirement.
Sure, his peak is very close to KGs, but I rank Garnetts 2004 extremely high, it's one of the top 5 peaks of all-time, most likely. He had an amazing statistical season by every way you measure and he did it in a league where scoring was way way down compared to the 80s. When Bird averaged 29.9 ppg, the Celtics scored 113.6 ppg and had a pace of 97.9. Compare that to Garnett playing on Minnesota who scored 94.5 ppg and had a pace of 89.
To give you an idea, Boston Celtics played much faster than Steve Nash Phoenix teams during everyone of Birds best scoring seasons. Defenses weren't as sophisticated as today and teams were basically out gunning eachother. If you're giving plus points to Bird for playing for a team scoring 110+ points per game, you have to give him negative value for playing 40 minutes on a team giving up 105+ points per game too. Garnetts Minny team durinng his peak gave up 89 points per game. Basketball was played at a slower pace, so of course Birds numbers are going to look more impressive without added context.
SwagKingKong
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Great argument.
SwagKingKong
All Star
Minnesota were top 5 offensively for three of his seasons there, and was top 10 for six of his years there. Now if you look through those rosters you'd see that a) the rosters are horrible and b) Garnett is the only constant piece.
He was great offensively, but even better defensively.
LOL @ all this bullshyt. Dirk was a legend even before that 2011 run, already had an MVP season and was legitimately robbed of a championship in 2006.
You guys will do anything to defend your heroes.
So then you go by per 100 possessions to get a better idea of how they'd stack up if pace was equalized and Bird's prine is still elite.
You also got the fact that Bird was sharing the possessions with the likes of McHale and Parish so he had less opportunities to statpadded like great players in bad teams tend to to do.
Bird is the much better and more impactful offensive player, a legit offensive anchor kinda dude and KG is obviously a game changer defensively but Bird spearheaded a GOAT offensivd team, has a better prime, and he got results. Same reason I'd take SHAQ over KG.
SwagKingKong
All Star
Yes, that is one way you can do to adjust for the pace but it still doesn't adress the fact that Bird played against much worse defenses. The best defensive teams from the 80s wouldn't stand a chance defensively against some of the competition that Garnett had to face during his prime.
Sure, I completely buy that Bird is the more impactful offensive player. Garnett doesn't even have an argument against Bird offensively, he's clearly worse. But the differences defensively between the two is even bigger, Bird was an average defender while Garnett is a top 3 defender of all-time.
Btw, I'd also take Shaq ahead of KG. Shaq peaked even higher, had a better prime (5 year, 10 year, whatever you choose) and the difference in longevity isn't enough to make up for that. Bird is a different story though, he's not that far ahead of Garnett during his prime to make up for the fact that Garnett has much better longevity.
I mean, I don't find it ridiculous that someone would rank Bird higher, but I disagree.
SwagKingKong
All Star
He's not. Pick anyone of the following players and make an argument for Kobe ahead of one of them:
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Garnett
duckbutta
eienaar van mans
Show me an article from a major sports publication that called Dirk an all time anything or called him a HOF before 2011...
That year he won MVP...you also forgot to mention that was the year he lost in the 1st round to GS...
You also forgot to mention that Dirk is the only player in NBA history to win the MVP and not make it to at least the second round...
You seem to want to narrow down Dirk's career into two years.
Here are the facts before 2011, most of these are before 2011
NBA champion (2011)
NBA Finals MVP (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
13× NBA All-Star (2002–2012, 2014–2015)
4× All-NBA First Team (2005–2007, 2009)
5× All-NBA Second Team (2002–2003, 2008, 2010–2011)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)
50–40–90 club (2007)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2006)
NBA Shooting Stars champion (2010)
Dallas Mavericks all-time leading scorer
FIBA World Cup MVP (2002)
FIBA EuroBasket MVP (2005)
6× Euroscar Player of the Year (2002–2006, 2011)
5× Eurobasket's All-Europeans Player of the Year (2005–2008, 2011)
2× FIBA Europe Player of the Year (2005, 2011)
Mister Europa Player of the Year (2005)
Silbernes Lorbeerblatt (2011)
German Sports Personality of the Year (2011)
Naismith Legacy Award (2012)
Magic Johnson Award (2014)
22.5 PPG, 9 RPG and can go off from anywhere on the court. Stretched out the defense like crazy, but can also post you up if needed to hit you with that one legged fade.
LOL @ the thought of Dirk not being a legend nor a hall of famer before 2011
Argue KG > Dirk all you want, that's fine...but to diminish this dude's career like that is straight up stupid.
Listen man, you seem to be a huge Garnett stan, but NOBODY is building a team with KG over Kobe. That's straight up ridiculous, Kobe is arguably top SIX all time.
Your list is off btw, take off Garnett who clearly does not belong there and put Duncan in there.